Bad Advice, Good Marriage with Monica and Ben

How you doing? Thanks so much for coming out with me. This is going to be fun. I'm looking forward to it. Monica, the the coach and then the civilian.

Yeah. Just a civilian.

Have you ever been on a podcast before?

I think we did, like, a really brief one a few years ago, and, it was pretty miserable, so I vowed never to do it again. Oh, no.

What was miserable about it?

Oh, I just, I, I, I don't know, I, I don't like talking about myself. It's probably more than anything. All right. It's uncomfortable.

Well, I was gonna open with the broad into, broad, an open ended question and just say, Ben, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, there you go. Oh, wait. You're being serious,

No. It's fine. I guess I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to antagonize you at all. You guys have been married. How long?

23 years.

And do you have. How many children?

Four.

What's that like? Who are they?

So, our oldest is 20. Well, almost, 22.

He just turned 22.

Oh, I guess he did, shoot last week. He just turned 22. So, he is, with his, new bride, fell out, what, three months now? Two months.

Wow. It's like a month. No, no. Two months. I got married, me 30 or a half.

My oldest daughter, who is, Let's see. Bern is almost 19. Then you have Sophie, who's going to be a junior this year, and she's almost 17. Okay. And she, she's here in town with us and. And Ike, who is? Let's see. Ike's 13 going to be 14 in September.

So I have this theory minor 18 and 22. I have this theory that, that I've been leaning into it for the last few years. So many of you agree that I think parenting young adults is harder than parenting young children.

Yeah. They're obviously a lot more complicated, right? They've got a lot more going on. And decisions are and they have opinions are more weighted. What's that?

And they have opinions.

Oh, definitely opinions and personalities.

Yeah.

They they do dumb stuff. Yeah.

Right. And and Monica, what are you what are you up to? You're you're coaching and you, wrote this book that I'm interested to talk about. I don't I didn't tell you this when I met you in Orlando, but I, I pitched a book to a publisher, and it was called, quit working on your marriage. No, actually, that wasn't the book I pitched. That was a new title. The first title I put was Have Happily Ever After Is a Myth. But it was the same thing. It was like all the cliches and and stuff that you think are true about relationships are not. And then you were like, mine's called bad marriage advice. And I was like, that's a great title, I love that, but where did that come from for you?

You know, it was really interesting because like my husband said, my son's been married for two months.

Yes.

Oh, yeah. I mean, he just barely turned 22. Right. So he and his bride are super young.

Yeah.

And they came to us and, you know, he said, I, I met this girl. I'm madly in love with her. I wanted to marry her. And I just thought, you know, my brain just started racing with all the things I've learned about marriage in our 23 years in the working with couples. And so I sat down to just write him this note, and it turned into this book. But really it was centered around, like, here's what people are going to tell you or here's what society has taught you, but it's not true. Like, here's the problem with that.

So like, what's on the list?

So many things I mean.

I sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think I know one that you're going to say because I saw it on a website when I teach publicly, one of the icebreaking questions I always say is, what's the worst marriage advice you read 100% of the time one of them comes up, do you know what it is?

Happy wife, happy life.

It's not that one, it's this.

Don't go to bed angry.

Don't go to bed angry. Every everybody says this is terrible. And I agree it is terrible advice. But, you talk to me about why happy life, happy wife is a happy wife. Happy life is a myth.

Well, I mean, just when you first say it, I mean, you're going to build a relationship on the premise that one partner's happiness is more important than the other's, right? Like, I mean, already, it's just bad marriage advice. Yeah, but it breeds a lot of contention because it's so common. I mean, you hear all the time. In fact, I see on social media all the time, there's, you know, the guy walking around with the microphone and he finds this older couple and you know, he's like, what's the secret to happiness? And they're always like, she's the boss. She was. And you know, she is in charge. And we know from our RLT training you can't build a great relationship on the premise of only one person getting their way.

Yeah, totally. Actually been I ask you this question, Monica, filling out a form in advance of the interview, and I asked her, on a scale of 1 to 10, how satisfied are you in the relationship? And ten is a good and one is bad. Do you have any idea what she put?

Wait, it does that do I do I do I have an idea what she put as far as ranking from 1 to 10, do you think.

She ranked it?

Oh, I would say. I would say she probably put like, like an eight. Okay.

What would you what do you think you would put?

Well, that's what I would say.

I put you put an eight.

Yeah. Yeah.

Monica, would you put.

What did you put.

I put a ten.

Oh, I that is perfect. Right.

But I think I always, I always look at tens and I'm like, I don't know, she's. What are you hiding? Like what? I just said was.

Oh, I, I totally agree, Zach. Oh. We're everyone's a work in progress. I mean, we're we're trying to get to where we want to be, but we're nothing's baked. But, I would say we're we're we're progressing.

I mean, this is a good this is a good area of inquiry for me sometimes, like, there's numbers. They're arbitrary, it's unscientific. It doesn't really matter. Like, but it says something, right? I think people who, for example, they say eight, but three months ago we were a four. They're doing better, perhaps, and people who are a nine, but they've been a nine forever, right? There's there's no there's nothing. They're not growing. They're not learning. There's nothing that they can look at and go, see, we're growing in this area. But I'd love to hear about, you know, you sort of hinted at this idea of, you know, somebody walking around with a microphone saying, what's the secret to a happy marriage? Oh, she's the boss. Like, that's not going to be your answer. But what what would you guys say? What is it? What's the secret to having a you averaging a nine?

I guess we do average a nine. Which again, that seems high. You know, I, I think that's the, the whole point is, is being able to, been able to get better as individuals. And I think being better as individuals, makes you better as a, as a spouse. So I, I don't, I don't view myself anywhere close to where I want to be. I, I view myself, like you said, just trying to improve, and, and working on myself. So I think I show up better in marriage. And if Monica is doing the same, then, then she shows up better in the marriage. IA9 is a frightening, that's a frightening number, because I don't I, I think that means we're close, and I think I think we're trying to get there, but we've got a long ways to go. As an individual, I, I speak myself, I've got a long ways to go. So collectively, I feel like we probably have some, some distance to. There's a gap there.

Monica, what can you tell me about choosing ten as your number?

Well, first of all, I think he's really smart. I mean, he doesn't give himself enough credit. I definitely think he's a nine. Like, you know, he's my funny answer is he's bringing us down.

Yeah.

But.

You know, my real answer is, yeah, marriage is a lot about collaboration and, working together. And, you know, it takes a lot of courage to be honest and to confront yourself and to constantly be working on yourself. And I think he does a really good job of that. You know, I love where we're at. I mean, so yeah, I guess if you had said ten is perfect, I might not have said a ten, but you said ten is really great. Yeah. Really good. So you feel.

Really good about.

It? I feel really good about our marriage. I mean, I'm really happy. I'm, I think we're at a place I'm happier than I've ever been. You know, I, I love being married to him. We have so much fun together, and it's so fun. I think the place where our kids are at are really fun. Yeah. You know, so I have nothing to complain about at this. Yeah, very.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

And what do you attribute that to?

That's a great question. I mean, for me, I attribute it to we're very intentional. Yeah. I for one work very hard on myself and on the marriage. And as you could tell by his answer, he does as well. So yeah, you know, it's not ever going to happen by accident. But I think that we are both very committed to doing the work and we make it really fun. I don't know, what would you say?

I think, I think we, we keep expectations in check. You know, we we've lived long enough to realize we we are fallible and we, we each make mistakes and just just realize. And that's that. That's life. I think we've both matured through the years, together. And what used to get me all hot and bothered and, upset, doesn't is much because I realize that, oh, I do that too. But the idea that we we both make mistakes and and that we are okay saying I'm sorry to each other and we're okay, disagreeing. I think that's very helpful. And we're both, I would say reasonable.

Do you have in your own life examples of where, say, bad marriage advice has crept up and you've had to grapple with the impact of that.

Good question. You start by you start.

Well I think the easiest answer is the don't go to bed angry. I mean yeah I lost so much sleep in the beginning of our marriage because you know we would be angry or irritable or, you know, picking at each other late at night. And he would just turn over and go to sleep. And I feel so abandoned. And I would just spiral like, no, we're not supposed to go to bed angry and how can you sleep? And I would sob loudly, hoping to wake him up, and I would, like, jostle him awake. And I would be like, you can't just sleep. I'm so upset and you know that for years, I think was really, really challenging for us until I finally could, you know, I, I stayed up late journaling so much that I realized I feel really abandoned when he does that.

And so I was able to express to him why, you know, my experience around abandonment and why that was so difficult for me. And so we kind of came up with a solution that he would say, I love you. I'm not going anywhere right now. I need to get some sleep. We'll talk about it in the morning. And I remember it was a big turning point for me and our relationship, because up until that point, I'm a fixer, okay. And so when we would get into conflict, I would immediately try to fix it. I would always apologize. First, I was like, I'm so sorry, let's not be mad. You know what? What can I do to fix this? And so for a long time in our marriage, he never apologized because I never really gave him the opportunity to.

I was just really quick to want to fix things and late at night was no different. So it wasn't until I could, you know, you know, he could say those words and I could calm my nervous system down enough to get some sleep, that he would always apologize in the morning. And so it was really cool because I was like, oh, wow, he does apologize. But, you know, he he wakes up before me. And so he would always roll over, put his arm around me and say, I'm sorry. And we would talk about it. And so I think that was a big turning point for us in our marriage, when I could finally just go to bed angry.

You have a point of view on that, Ben.

Yeah. You know, when she says that, that I would say I love you. I'm not going anywhere. That that was through clenched teeth. I I those were long nights, and we we we really felt like that was something that had to be done. We had to be okay with each other before we went to bed. And I was so irritated and, tired. It was miserable. So, Monica, where's. There's a where where's her emotions on her sleeve, and she's, you know, she's emotional. I think we're we're all emotional to an extent. We're all emotional. But she she wears it out there. I, I just need some quiet and I, it takes me a while to process and, you know, get a level head so that I just need time.

So the whole, hey, we need to fix this now thing does, does not work. So for me, give me some time, let me sleep about it. And, or if it's during the day, I'll, I'll go for a walk and I'll clear my head a little bit. Yeah. I need to process information first, and then, I can feel comfortable with where we're at and realize where where I've where I. Vermont. I'm wrong.

How did you guys learn how to do that? Did you have, like, was there a moment, was there a specific event or incident, like, did you did it just dawned on you slowly. How did you come to kind of negotiate terms in this place?

You know, it came naturally in the beginning of our marriage. We both felt like this was a thing. And Monica thought we were getting divorced on multiple occasions because, I don't like leaving in an argument. In fact, I think that that that I actually really dislike when someone leaves an argument, but that the need to process the information, I would do that. I would say, hey, I'm just going to go do this. I'm not going to, I'm not leaving, but I just need to go do this.

And that took time for you to be able to say, I'm not leaving, but I need to know.

For sure.

He would just leave. Yeah, for the first part of it. And that's when I would be so triggered that I was like, oh my gosh, it's over. So he did learn how to tell me, you know, take distance responsibly.

Yeah, that that's true. So through the years it it's it's funny you I would say we're just not that bright because finally I mean this is after, you know, let's say maybe ten years at least, where I just said, I'm going to bed. I'm going to bed. Like, let's pick this up in the morning and I it just came naturally that that would just realize that we just need to sleep on it. And so I wish we would have figured that out a lot earlier. In fact, I feel silly that we didn't because, it would have saved a lot of sleepless nights and, you know, annoyance, irritation.

Do you have any idea how you learned how to leave, like how you learned to shut down or just, you know, back out? Where did that come from for you and your life?

Yeah, I, I think it just came naturally. I would stick with it and we would get even more heated and more contentious and,

Is that something like you're you learn how to do it. You're like, did your parents do that to you? Did your dad do that? How did you learn how to do that? How you survived in your house? Like, how did that become a skill that you had?

Well, that's just it. It wasn't. It wasn't shown to me. My my parents didn't argue. They were very rare. I would say, I never saw my parents argue. And, that's not normal, you know? And it's to be true like this.

Much as normal by the way.

What's,

There's not much that is normal, by the way.

Oh, sure. Yeah, I agree with that. What's normal? Right. Yeah. But, but but my parents just didn't argue a lot either. My, my dad was, my dad was very sensitive and very patient, very kind. He was a very good person. And my mom was too. And so they they really it's not like they didn't have disagreements, but they didn't get get loud and they didn't get heated with each other, which is actually really impressive.

Yeah. For a long time when I joined the family they had this thing where his parents never raised their voices like to each other, not to the kids. And I came from such a different background that it, you know when we first got married I was like trying all the things to try and, you know, get his attention fix. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, my family, there's a lot of raised voices, you know, there's raised voices. There's, you know, grabbing the keys and taking off. There's, you know, all kinds of very dramatic demonstrations. If I'm not happy.

Yeah.

So yeah, this is kind of interesting that when I first married into Monica's family, they, they would yell at each other, like, openly and in just a group setting. And it was so uncomfortable to me. And I was like, Holy crap, what is wrong with these people? Yeah. And they would all, like, mock me and say, oh, ban, you're just easy. You're chill. You know, you're just.

Nothing ruffles your feathers.

And I'm like, not really, but I don't openly, you know, go to bat with people in front of a like it just seems so awkward. But, anyway, I when they asked me how I was doing, I just, I mean, I'm good, like, and I was, I was just good, you know, I just, I'm not wasn't just.

I'm not going to make this or.

That. Yeah. I'm not I'm not interested in making things worse, that's for sure. Yeah.

I'm a little bit like you. That's kind of what I'm wondering about, like, because I'm like, oh, I recognize some of the behavior that you're describing, particularly married to someone who's a little more anxious and who wants to fix things. And you know, it's what's interesting, I don't know if you guys have this experience. Is that Rebecca? My wife usually knows if I'm shutting down before I do. Like she can tell before I sometimes can that I'm withdrawing or that I'm that I'm retreating and that all that does is like, raise her Spidey sense is even more. And so we've had to really, really both grow in that space. And I'm always interested in how people do that because, you know, I definitely learned it from, you know, having two parents who were, inclined to Cold War, like it wasn't they didn't, like, argue out loud.

And they but they weren't like your parents either. But like, you could tell. And the best thing you could do was just like, get the heck out of there so that you didn't somehow end up in the wrong on the wrong side of the word, you know, like, so I would just go to Switzerland, which was soccer practice or my job or my girlfriend's house or something. So, I have lots of practice of just, like, getting out of anything that begins to feel uncomfortable. So.

Yeah. And I have massive abandonment issues. You know, and my experience growing up is, you know, people left. Yeah. People took took off and didn't come back. Really? Yeah. And so, you know, that was really triggering for me that he could just disengage and. Yeah, go quiet like that. And so it did take I did a lot of work on myself for a lot of years. So now when he you know, I think I can tell when he's kind of disengaging. But I know now, you know, from so much experience that he's just going to think about it and he's going to come back with a clear level head. And so I just give him his space now. Yeah. It's easy.

Yeah. Which is why going to bed angry is like, I think you sure go to bed angry. Because if you're going to wake up peaceful, your body has done you a favor. Now, some people can't sleep and they roll to toss and turn all night. Maybe they're. But, you know, for some of us, we just need our bodies to actually come online and get the rest that it needs and get whatever else it needs. But again, you said something a little bit earlier that I want to check in on, not just for you, but also for anyone who's listening because you said something that I don't. I don't like it when people say and that it's okay. But here's what it is. You said, I sometimes I feel abandoned. And when when I'm talking to my clients about feelings, I'm.

I want them to talk to me about what the what what their body feels like. You know, I feel cold, I feel hot. Soon, as you say, I feel like you're moving away from your body, right? And as soon as you say, I feel like you said longer a feeling. It's a judgment. And I think when people say I feel abandoned, what they're saying is, I feel like you're abandoning me, which isn't a feeling. It's a judgment. But abandoned feels like something. And so I wonder if you are in tune with that. Like what is abandoned feel like in your body.

So for me, it's it's like a full on panic. Stress, stress, like cortisol, like, you know, I.

I feel sweaty, I feel.

Yes, it's like three anxious like this. You you are in danger.

I feel afraid.

Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. So, yeah, I feel I used to feel all of those things when he would be able to, when he would leave, whether it was, you know, when he would just disengage in the conversation, which sometimes he does, you know, sometimes he kind of reaches his level of, you know, I can't listen anymore. And so you can tell he's just kind of turned on his side or he's not looking at me, you know, or he will physically leave the premises. And that is it's like a full on panic response, like, oh my gosh, like I've done something horrible and he's not going to come back. But that was my experience. It's like that, that idea of you're not responding to what's in front of you. You're responding to something from your past. And that, you know, was it.

Well that's why it's so important. Right. For you to say I feel abandoned. I'm sure that's true. Then can go. I didn't abandon you. Right. I just, I just needed a break. I just needed to sleep, you know, now I feel lonely, I feel anxious, I feel sweaty. Oh, man. That's terrible. I'm so sorry. Well. And, yeah, some of that's not your fault, because that's my parents. Or that's my first partner. That's my. You know, I got left at the mall accidentally by my babysitter when I was seven, and people want to pupusa that stuff sometimes. But this is where I go. It's your body that your body remembers this stuff. Your body? Yeah. Feels what it feels, you know.

So are you saying it's more your body than your mind, or is that connected to your body?

Well, you're of course your mind is in your body, right? But what I'm saying is, and it doesn't have to be like a physical sensation. But the reality is that, like right now, you're not paying attention to the way that cushion feels under your butt until I say, hey, pay attention to how the cushion feels under your butt, and you can feel you'll feel different pressure points in the different parts of your your bottom, you know, and it might feel cold. You might go, oh yeah, look, my skin is touching this piece, but my butt right here, my shorts are touching. And unless we're, like, literally paying attention, sometimes it's easier to let that stuff go. And so what we say is, you know, I, I think we, we think we get lazy and we say, oh, I feel abandoned, I feel rejected, I feel used without going.

But this is what that actually feels like. And so it's the mind that wants to fill in the gaps and say, oh, this is what it means that I feel these things right. It means versus the body that goes. But this is what it actually is. And so I think a lot of like leveling up as a, as an a where a person is, is checking in with like, what do I actually feel? And, you know, again, my wife can tell that I feel stuff before I can feel it. And I might have to actually pay attention to go, yeah, I'm kind of angry right now. It doesn't feel like hot rage inside my chest, you know? But it does. But I do understand that, like. Right. Yeah. This thing that I feel right now, this is anger and that helps me go now, whose responsibility is that? Is that mine? Is it hers? And it's usually mine, right. It's usually mine to go. Go deal with it.

So, you know interesting.

It's it is really interesting. It took a lot of communication for the two of us because he doesn't have experiences like that. So I really had to express myself well for him to understand because in his experience, there's always been enough love like nobody's ever taken love away. Like, you know, that's not his experience growing up. Whereas for me, you know, the punishment for bad behavior or even just being was to take was to withdraw love. And so that's what it felt like to me when he would disengage. I felt like he was withdrawing love for me. And that was a very scary place to be in. But he didn't have that experience as that's not part of his repertoire. So I had to really explore. I had to really figure out for me what that was.

Yeah. And then be able to express it to him in a way that he could not understand because he's experienced it, but he could empathize with my experience of it.

Totally. And, you know, again, you got 23 years in. Do you think that you have an awareness of distinct phases of growth for yourselves, like, can you go, oh, phase one of our relationship was like this, and phase two was like this, and phase three was like this. And then here we are. And this is what the experience of phase five or 12 or 48 is like, do you have any sense of that for yourselves as you reflect from here, man?

Well, it'd be hard for me to pinpoint that. I, I definitely know there I see and feel the, the growth that we've had together. And part of it's, you know, what we've done, you know, Monica has done an exceptional job of, well, raising our children, and, initially started starting a business together, and then I kind of took more of that, and she, did more of the, spend more time in and teaching and grooming our children, so. But through there, I think you can kind of see phases of, of, of growth from what we each have done in our own spheres. But as far as, like just our relationship itself, I think it'd be hard to pinpoint.

I don't know, I mean, some of those are really easy, right? Like before we had kids, it was like this. After we had kids, it was like that. Or before we had kids leaving. It was like this and that. After we had kids leaving, it was like that. I sometimes I just wonder though, because I think if we're not aware of those phases, they sneak up on us and that's where we end up. You know, I don't know, Monica, if you have this experience, a lot of people come in in 20 or so years and, and they they say something like, oh, man, we just feel like roommates. Like, this is like we're ships in the night. We're just kind of passing. But sounds like you guys have plenty of reason to stay tethered. You got kids in the house still. You you currently do. Or you used to run a business together.

So we we we used to. We started together and then, Monica. Monica, acted as she did all the, the bookkeeping as well as the, you know, payroll. The blessing to her was when we got to a point where we could hire an accountant. I ran it from there for another, 18 years or so. Yeah.

Probably comes with its own confusing, you know, sort of boundary issues when you're trying to figure out what had to. Where am I the am I the CEO and the accountant right now, or am I the the lover and the friend right now? Like, how does that that certainly you've had to gain some experience or some insight into that as well.

Yeah. That there was some difficult times, there, especially in the beginning where her time was very limited, yet I had pretty high expectations of getting things done. And being able to, to, to, you know, to operate. Yeah. It was a blessing to be able to not for her not to have to wear multiple hats and wear. I was already wearing multiple hats. You know, starting your own companies is is always a very busy, challenging thing and very stressful. So when you can, can, you know, delegate some responsibility, it's it's it's a great but you can't do it until you can afford to do it. Right. So it's a, it's, it's a great part of of growth.

Is you're still running the business.

No, no, I, I, I, I know I, I, we sold everything. All right. So. Yeah. Great. We, we started offices in multiple states and and just one by one, you know, you have to have a certain amount of, years of PR now. And when it when it became time, I, we sold off offices and Boise was the last one, and, I was approached by a group that I think I thought would be really fun to work with, and so I, I sold, the last office in or we sold the last office in, in January of last year. Well.

What was it?

It pest control companies.

And now what? What do you do now? Do you just, like, do you get to, like, hang out and do whatever you want, or do you have another thing that you've taken on?

So we've tried that, one of our bigger offices was in Dallas, Texas, and when I sold that one, I thought, I'm good. I'll, I think I'll just, you know, work out and, do some yard work here and there. And that was exceptionally boring. I absolutely hated it. So, I knew when when when my finally sold Boise, I had to do something that would that would really engage me, or I would go crazy, and I think I would make Monica crazy, too. I don't sit still very well. And so, anyway, no, it's it's a local company here that's been around for 50 years, and it's not pest control. They need it. They, my role is, is just kind of on the leadership team and. Yeah, just run it.

Yeah, yeah. So you're staying busy. Meanwhile, Monica is coaching, doing marriage stuff. And you know, Scott, this book that she's leaning about and her podcasts and other things, do you ever. What's that like being married to, like a relationship expert? I always ask people this question because, you know, we get it all the time. My wife especially, she's like, oh, you guys must be, you know, doing great, you know? And so I wonder what what it's like every year we go, no, no.

We don't make them do podcasts.

Yeah. So I, I, I think, I think it'd be different if social media wasn't part of it. And in order to get the word out and. Yeah, kind of share what Monica does. She's very active on social media. I have zero social media and yeah, don't want anything to do with it. And so people that I know, people that that work for us and, and friends and they're very aware of what Monica does. And that's kind of uncomfortable, if I'm being honest, because she's sharing part of our life and I'm more of a private person. Yeah. They're saying, hey, I see you just got back from, you know, this, and it looks like you guys had a great time. I my first instinct still is like, how did you know that?

Yeah, right. I'm looking at a picture of you right now in a tuxedo. You look very handsome. Looks like you're like, you're like the the man of the hour.

Yeah, that that was probably one of the most, uncomfortable things I've ever done.

Or was it an event or where you just at a photoshoot, or how did you pull it off?

It was, it was more like a photoshoot, wasn't, you know, that.

Was it that actually one of my clients, like, gifted us that photo shoot?

Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. So what are you doing? Like, how are you making it work? Like, what's your what's your stick for? For people. What are what are your goals and how is your relationship with Ben in particular. Like serve those goals.

Yeah. You know I don't know if you can tell from this interview, but we have a lot of fun together. I mean, we're best friends were lovers. We're adventure buddy. Yeah. I mean, sometimes he's a pain in my ass, but most of the time we get along really well, and. Yeah. And we're teammates and we're friends and confidants. And, you know, we talk about everything. And I just. I feel like our marriage went from really difficult, you know, trying to bring together two very different people. Yeah. Two very different experiences. And perspectives and opinions, to a place where we can appreciate each other's different differences now. And, you know, we love to be together and so it is possible, like, happily ever after is absolutely possible.

And I want that for everyone. And but it took a lot of, you know, learning growth, I would say discomfort and intentionality to get this way. And so I think when you asked about what phase we're in, I think for me, yeah, it sounds.

Like a phase.

Yeah. I think for me right now, I feel like I'm in my phase of intentionality, like the things that I do there for a reason, you know, like the way I interact with my children, the way I interact with Ben. I love that in my family. It's very intentional. And, you know, I think about the impact that I have on other people. Yeah. And I, I really want that for the people that I love. And, you know, if you come to me as a client, that you become part of that, you know.

You're helping people become intentional about their relationships. Yeah. Yeah, I'm into it. Yeah.

They were always like that. I think for a long time it felt like we're just surviving. Right.

Exactly. What I'm saying is we went from so far.

Yeah.

From intentional to I'm really focused on intentionality, you.

Know, and, you know, again, this is I'm just interested in this. Like, is there a point that can you look at like 2018 or can you look at Covid or can you look at after our kid got in that one car accident, like, is there a moment or a or an era that you can sort of look at and go, this is when we decided to shift from something like survival to something like intentionality?

I can pinpoint a moment, but do you really?

I love it here. We have to say.

For me, it was a bout of anxiety. I get really, really, I would get debilitating anxiety I have throughout our marriage at different points. And for me, it was a time I, I had three or possibly all four children. I'm not sure. I can't exactly remember that part, but I was so incapacitated I couldn't get dressed. I couldn't take care of my family. He was trying to run the business and take care of our kids and take care of me, and it was so taxing on everyone. And he didn't know what to do. And so he sent me home to live with my mom for a couple of weeks. Well, and it was kind of this really eye opening experience and an opportunity to for me to face all of my fears.

It was kind of like being in the crucible of who am I? It was it was like inner child work before I ever knew what inner child work was. But my mom is a therapist. She's a PhD, and she was a big part of all of that that was happening to me. I mean, she did. You know, I love my mom, no disrespect, but she did abandon me when I was 12 years old. She went and lived in a different state. She kind of became comatose. I mean, she just went into a cocoon for, like five years. Yeah. And wasn't. Of course.

You have that trigger point. Yeah.

For the most, like, impressionable years of my life.

When the way those five years were, you were held.

At like 12 to 17in. And then when she came back when I was 17, she came back because my, my dad and my stepmom had kicked me out of my house. And I basically was homeless, like couch surfing. And so my senior year of high school and she came back, but she was so depressed, she didn't ever even leave her room. And so she had a big part of it. She had to do her own healing. And I was so grateful that she was so aware. And that had done that work, that she could save me from pretty much the same fate. And so that couple of weeks that I spent with my mom at home and facing all my demons and figuring out what I wanted and, and like how how I was going to be intentional, like I didn't know what I was going to do, but I knew I wasn't going to make those same decisions. And so, yeah, I went back to my family and, you know, kind of started the process of really hard, intentional work,

That's bonkers that you had to endure all that and then, you know, but sounds like your mom rallied and was able to offer you something like healing as an adult.

Absolutely. I mean, she's amazing.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah. She had her own journey of figuring out who she was. And whose she was. And you know what the purpose of her life was. And that was really hard for everyone.

Yeah, I had this other question from a little bit ago, but no, maybe it doesn't feel quite as important. But when you think about you two and being friends and lovers and playmates, like, what is it that you do? Like what's your what's your thing? What do you do that.

Yeah, we're we're we're pretty active. We we, so when we vacation, it's it's I was actually we were talking about this the other day. We we we like to go to different places. Places we'd never been. So we like we like to vacate. First off. Yeah. We we value that. We. I'm, I'm more of a thrifty and and don't like to spend money type of a guy. But yeah, when it comes to vacations, Monica's, we have agreed that's something we do. And we do often. So we go to places like, like, for instance, we were talking about, Oh, we went to Europe, for example. We, we ate our way through Europe, and it was fantastic. But because we were so active, we, you know, we weren't taking, cabs or Ubers everywhere. We were literally walking that whole, you know, I'm thinking of, like Italy and and Florence.

And we're biking and walking and hiking.

Yeah. And hiking. We we're just we love being really active together. So yeah, we love to explore new places, but, we we like Hawaii is one of our favorites where we will hike. I think the first time I went to Hawaii, we hiked over 25 miles in the week that we were there. Just why is a beautiful place, but there's a whole bunch of different trails and beautiful sights. And so that's a challenge, a physical challenge, is is something we really enjoy.

But that's vacationing. We have it's really interesting because I had to convince him that that vacationing was worthwhile. Yeah. When we first got married, he was not like a vacationer. He was like, oh, you work, you put your head down, you get to work. And that's what you do, right? Yeah. And so vacation has become very important to us. But just on a day to day, I mean, we work, we exercise together when we can, early in the mornings. We take walks every single day together. I mean, every evening. You know, our date nights often include a lot of walking.

Or bike ride downtown or or.

Scootering or, you know, we just we just have fun. But I think our thing is talking. We love to talk to each other. I mean, we just share everything. And there's been times where, you know, we've been very intimate with each other. And I've said, what's your favorite thing about me right now? And he just, you know, one of the things he says is that I can share anything and everything with you. And so I think our thing is, is staying active together and really talking and sharing a lot with each other.

Okay. Well, at the risk of soliciting bad marriage advice, what what do you have to say to couples that might be listening? Like, what's the best advice you have for them? As, as we think about how to put a bow on this conversation, I'm always curious. I mean, I mean, maybe you've already said it, but, and I have my hip pocket answers, but I'm just wondering if you have one.

It's about learning how to really respect and honor each other, and that requires a lot of curiosity and a lot of vulnerability. Ben and I have been able to create the life that we have together by staying open and curious, by being very vulnerable and, you know, just really respecting each other and our differences and, you know, in the beginning, you know, I think, through all the phases, I think we've been very compassionate with each other. Very, patient with each other. And, you know, we've just had a lot of faith in ourselves. And in the process, I think.

Mine would be actually as I, as a part of this first, second. And I mentioned earlier that I, I feel like personal development, I, I, I realize it and it's not hard to to be in an argument with your spouse and realize, man, I can't control my feelings very well. I'm not very patient. I'm not being very respectful or charitable. I need to work on that like that. I'm awful at that. And realizing that I could be so much better. And so trying to work on, you know, work on you, and and it's not I don't I don't love the idea that it's all about you. And, you know, you do you I that's how I want to say.

But. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. But I do feel like we each can get better at who we are and how we show up. And so I have tried really hard to do that. I've got a long ways to go. And Monica, has as well, you know, where she would just in your early in our marriage and like I would say something to be like, holy crap. Like, you know, she she got real hot real quick. So collectively, I think we matured and really focused on getting better as people. Again. We both have a long ways to go, but I think that helps us, you know, have this relationship where we can connect. Yeah. In a better place.

Yeah. That's usually my answer to, like, I think learning how to take care of your side of the street and showing up as the best partner, you know, how to show up as where you can, then that's where you have the most leverage ultimately, and trying to make the relationship better. And the thing that that you didn't say in your answer, Monica, but I think you said throughout the the conversation was just this idea of like really being intentional, like you have to you don't just like, communicate naturally. You communicate because you go out on a walk and you ask questions of each other or you you decide that there are things that you want to do and you do them, with some degree of purpose and some degree of shared value set. So then, listen, I think you did a great job talking about yourself.

Yeah, you're very nice.

You surprised you surprised yourself and everybody, you know, and it happens. I had this one time, I had, I was meeting a guy for the first time, just as a friend. He asked me for some time, and we met up for drinks, and he was I was like, so what's up, Jake? What's on your mind? And he was like, I don't know, I don't know. I'm not really good at talking about myself as I. That's all right. Why don't you just like where you from? Guy did not shut up for 45 minutes. Literally. He just talked, like, the entire time. I was like, so, you know, it just happened, right?

And I, I think the and the calm way which you approach people, I think is very inviting.

Maybe, maybe I got a lot of practice. So. Yeah. Listen, thank you guys for giving me your Sunday afternoon. It's been really fun talking to you. I'm excited about your book. What's happening? Is it is it, is it hitting the shelves anytime soon, or is it out there already?

We're really, really close. We, just I just got the interior design back. And here's what's really cool is that we. So yesterday I started my day at 4 a.m. in Austin, Texas, okay. And I flew to Minnesota and then flew home, just then picked me up at the airport. I changed my clothes. We jumped in the car, drove 3.5 hours to a friend's wedding and Pocatello, eastern Idaho, and then did the whole wedding reception. Drove back. So we spent a lot of time together, but we had been apart for four days. Yeah, what I did was I read him my entire book. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it was really cool.

So we. Yeah, there's some, you know, a little corrections here and there that we found.

And yeah, he was so helpful. In fact, there was like I was telling a story and of course I changed the names of my clients when I'm telling their stories. Yeah. Yeah. And I had I did the correct pseudonym first. And then as I kept talking, I changed it back to his name. Yeah. And so, you know, we're I mean, we've been through all the editing processes, so this is like just the design. So we, you know, I have a list of all the chapters and the things that needed fixing. So we're kind of in the final processes of design and editing right now.

Very cool. We'll keep us posted. I'll make sure that we, we get it in front of people and, and. Yeah, this is good to talk to you both. And thanks so much again for giving me a little snippet of your time.

Thank you. Back. So you.