Sobriety, Support, and a Stronger Us | with Casey and Mike Davidson

How are you doing?

Good, good. You're Seattle based, right? Or so.

Around here? Yeah. You too. Right. Where are.

You? Redmond, what about you?

I'm in North Seattle. So sorry that you have to hang out with me at 1:00 on the sunniest day of the year so far, I guess. It's it's a it's a nice one, but hard to be stuck inside. When you only get so many of these every once in a while.

Yeah. Well, it's it's good. Happy to be here.

I have this really enormous privilege of talking to a lot of different kinds of couples about how they make their relationship work, and most people don't have that. Most people have their parents, maybe their friends, you know, maybe five couples that they look at and go, oh, that's how relationships work. And so I've just sort of decided I'm going to have, My listeners get to hear from a bunch of different couples about how they make relationship work. And I interviewed my parents a couple of weeks ago. The next episode, it'll come out before years is, a couple of 18 year olds.

Really?

I've had people from.

The 18.

Year old. 18. Yeah. They're not married, but they're just, Okay. They're just trying to figure out how to do relationships. And I was like, what? What do you like? What do you know that I don't know, like. So I don't know if you hear this, but like, in my couples practice, anyway, people come back and say, I just wanted to go back to the way it was when we first met. And I was like, what's that like? You know. Yeah. Yeah. When was that? It was 30 years ago. Well, let's change the 30 or so. Yeah. What's up with you guys? Tell me your story or not. Story about who are you? Just so there are people can find out. I got a I got your bios, but you're you have a unique journey of your own. How would you describe it? In an elevator speech?

Let's say we met, in the first job we both had after college. We, we both ended up in Washington, DC town. Neither of us was was particularly from, and, we worked together. We were, you know, we worked together for maybe three years and were dating for maybe two of those. Yeah. And I decided that, that the the job wasn't for me anymore. We were. We're management consultants and competitive intelligence of the. It was an interesting job, but not really a life's work. Yeah. And I said, hey, I want to go do something else. I've never really spent any time west of the Mississippi. But I'm moving. Do you want to come.

And you're together? How long at this point?

We've been. We've been dating for two years. Yeah. Okay. And. And she said yes. And so we, we took ten days and auditioned cities on the West Coast. We spent like, three days in Seattle and. And San Francisco and San Diego, and, I voted for San Diego, and she voted for Seattle.

Did you do that thing where you compromised and then went to Seattle?

Not quite kindly.

Well, she made that. She made the point that she had actually found a job, and they were going to move us out there, and I hadn't done yet. Yeah. So we went to Seattle.

Is that you're saying, like you just. If I if I interpret what you just said, like you're kind of clear about what you don't want, but maybe less clear about what you do want. And then, Casey, you're more of like, I know what I do want, and you go get that thing.

Yeah, I think I think in this case, it's it more played into her, like deep seeded fear of ending up homeless and destitute. Okay. Right. And so, you know, there was going to be a I'm, I think I'm, I'm more, comfortable without a full plan sometimes than she is.

Yeah.

I like things very comfortable. And, not a lot of change. And so it was definitely a leap of faith to leave my job and move somewhere new. Yeah. When we visited cities, the big call towards Seattle was a. It was 2000. There were tons of jobs. It's a gorgeous city. Yeah, it felt like a lot of young couples doing a lot of outdoorsy things. So that was a huge draw. Second draw is my very best friend from boarding school. Lived here. Okay. And so we stayed with her and her boyfriend. They lived on a floating home and Lake Union and had a fantastic time. And I was just like, I want to live in Seattle. And so, you know, Mike initiated the move.

I decided to take a leap of faith. And then I was like, I am going to control everything I can. So I, I think before he updated his resume, I had put out all the job, resume has gotten eight interviews and two job offers, and they offered to move us out there. So he, you know, I was like, all right. You know, I guess to you, I'm moving. Are you coming with.

We got here in 99. So we've all been here about the same time, and it's changed a lot. This town has changed a lot.

Oh. So much. Yeah, but it was really fun. We ended up finding a floating home to rent on Lake Union. That was a mile from my best friend. And, it. We lived on floating homes for three years when we were 25 years old. I mean, it was it was epic and awesome and lovely.

Which meant what was that? That was, Sleepless in Seattle. Tom Hanks lived on this exact unit.

Yeah, we were on, Lake Union and then Portage Bay on this really cool 600 square foot floating home. We got kayaks and could, you know, take a couple strokes and the whole city was lit up in front of you, and it was lovely.

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it. And so you've been here, I guess, let's say 25 years. Yeah. And what are you doing now? Like, you came out here for a job and and, you I dare you each in those jobs still. Are you doing new things?

Yeah. I, I, you know, bounced right into sort of the.com world that was, a little unstable in the 2000. So got on a.com right before it IPO, and within a year, they laid off 70% of their people. Okay. Including me, the bonus was they had a lot of money, so they gave me five months off, plus unemployment. And then I moved. I mean, I probably worked at seven companies in my time here. I worked in digital marketing at a bunch of big companies, a bunch of small startups, and then five years ago, I quit drinking. Almost a decade ago, I decided to start my own coaching practice. So I'm a sober coach for women, and I host a podcast, and I've been doing that for five years.

Yeah, that's very cool. And I'm coming on your podcast, is that right?

Yes. Yeah. We're talking on the 28th. I'm.

That's great. Well make it like part one. Part two because I'm interested in your story. I also quit drinking only about five years ago. Not only, well, yeah.

That's that's a good extent.

I don't know if that's the right word, but, like, I, I don't even think about it anymore. It's like it's sort of like it just is a thing that I am right now. Not even a thing I did, but, And then, Mike, what are you up to?

I've had a couple of jobs when I'm, when I first got out here. I've worked for the Mariners for a while. Security during the.

Season. And, as a catcher, you should have you should say question for the Mariners or, like, a catcher or like a designated hitter. Yeah.

No, I was, free for a season. I was the guy that, jumped out of the stands in between innings, left, right field to make sure nobody ran on the field the year.

That they were really good.

That that year they won 116 or something. Yeah, I was I was down there for a couple of those games. What is the what okay. I actually sidebar what's your job. What is the those guys, what are you supposed to do. You just stare at stuff like, it's like you, that's you don't smile, you don't turn your neck. You just, like, makes you just look intimidating.

You're basically just a deterrent to somebody who, And then you got to run fast. So it's going take a guy, jump on the field. I never got to actually chase anybody down and tackle them. And and all that. It sounds like more for the more fun job I did was working out the whole enforcement, you know, it was you and a partner, and you get sent out somewhere by the, you know, eye in the sky, and you're basically small town cops for this, you know, city, a little city of a thousand people, all of whom are in one of their bigger drinking days of the year. Yeah. So that was there were always stories to tell on those nights.

Yeah, I bet, I bet. And so now you're doing what you just. What are you doing?

So, you know, that wasn't very long. I, I took a job in, in 2001, teaching sixth grade, at an independent school, in Redmond. And, and I've been there ever since. So I taught sixth grade for a bunch of years. I was a a high school dean of students, and I've been a middle school principal now for a decade. Yeah.

So you're like Mr.. Mr. Davidson.

I'm Mr..

Davis and a coach.

And a coach. Yes. I coached varsity basketball and coach varsity baseball. Now for, last year, my 24 season. So yeah, I did. I found that life's work that, that I was looking for originally.

That's the coolest. And it's a pretty far away away from being a management consultant in what you call it is intelligence or something. Yep. That's insane. I was just in DC a couple weeks ago. It's a it's a cool town. My daughter's actually walking around Washington DC, right? The second, in fact, she is at the.

Doing the flying.

But yeah, I'm like, where she at?

We have a 17 year old son and you know, he's obviously getting independent. So he's wandering around. It's seen all his friends and I, we basically are like, oh, he's at this restaurant. Oh yeah. Sit this.

Out. She is on the mall, right. The second, about to walk past the white House. You have children 17 and then couple in.

Mr. Levitt and 17 year old boy. 11 year old girl.

Yeah. How's that?

Great.

Yeah, they're good kids.

They're really good kids. We got lucky.

I get the neat experience of, You know, they they both now go to that school right where I am. All right. So I've gotten to be a part of of our son's journey, seeing him at school every day since the fifth grade. And, and now the same for our daughter, which is, pretty unique kind of special thing to be tuned into to them that way. Yeah.

Mike, are you alcohol free? No. Okay. And, so I'd love to hear about that for you guys. Like, what is that story and how do you how do you need it together, particularly if it's part of your, like, kind of identity and your stake in the ground, like, how do you how do you guys do that? Or how would how do you talk about it?

Absolutely. Well, I know from reading your bio that your wife is also alcohol free now.

Yeah. No, I mean, we had a we had a the last five years have been a real sort of collaborative process in that because I have a about to I started about two years before she did. And so you know, they're not quite overlapping and they're different, very, very different styles of sobriety journeys like extremely different. So I'm always curious about it. And then, you know, part of what I, when I hear about from you guys is that I actually think that quitting drinking was pretty easy for me. It was easier for me than it was for her. But then I also realized that alcohol wasn't my drug of choice. My drug of choice was far more relational. It was it was anger.

It was resentment. And so I spent more time in recovery from anger and resentment than from alcohol. Or maybe less time because I quit drinking before I quit being angry. But I, anyway, we have a whole we have a whole narrative about and around that, that I'm more than happy to share. But it's also not my it's I, I want to hear from you guys, too. Maybe I'll tell you on your on. I want to come visit you.

Yeah, that would be amazing. Yeah. So, I mean, I was eight when we met. I was a big drinker. Oh, it was a lot of, So I went to college. I played college rugby, which was a master class. Yeah. Problematic drinking habits. I think it was. I was sort of the, like, gold star girl who got straight A's and then got blackout drunk after rugby parties. Yeah, at keg parties. I found that it really shut off my mind and it was really fun. And I was, you know, always very concerned about how I presented and whether people liked me and and overthought everything. And, you know, it was sort of a feature, not a bug, that if I drank enough, anything could happen.

And, I took that into my first job out of college. My parents were Foreign Service officers overseas. They had a ton of dinner parties and neither one of them struggled with alcohol. Yet a bottle of wine was on the dining room table every single night. Every party was cocktails. And I thought, that's what adults did. So when I graduated college, I just started that on my own. And I was a terrible cook. So I, I say, now I'm an adult. I would literally eat Lucky Charms for dinner with a big glass of red wine. I mean, it was ridiculous, but, I was a seven night a week drinker and sort of varied what I drank based on my time in life. That Mike, you know, they hired 30 kids right out of college at this consulting firm.

We had a huge group of friends. We went out drinking at bars. We went out on, whitewater rafting trips. We went on ski trips. So I was always a drinker. And Mike drank, too. He didn't ever drink like I did. I just, you know, at some point later in life, Mike said to me, you know, you drink until it's gone or until you pass out.

No. It's gone. You're gone.

Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. And it was sort of like for a long time, it was just like you knew who you married, right? And it was fun. I was, you know, what I would say is I was I was a happy drinker. You know, when I had enough, I would sort of, like, fade into the background, smiling quietly, you know, and and go to sleep. Aka pass out. Yeah. I was, you know, really still very responsible. Mike always drove. It was, like, unspoken that he would be driving home anywhere we went. But, I was always like, the coffee is made, the kids are set, the groceries are bottoms. I have three alarm set for the morning. I woke up at 530 to do boot camp.

And yet I was going through life with a hangover and a headache and sort of crushing anxiety that for a long time I did not realize was related to my drinking. I was waking up at 3 a.m., but also clueless. You know, when you're in your 20s and 30s thinking it's work, stress, and sort of was trying to solve for all of the not symptoms, but repercussions from drinking without giving up drinking. So I would go to therapy and I would work out and I would say I needed sleeping pills and yet never really looked at my alcohol consumption other than I need to drink less and moderate. Yeah. And so I spent years trying, like making all the rules, like I'm only going to drink two drinks a night, or I'm only going to drink when I'm home, so I won't drive, or I'll only drink when I'm out.

So it won't be as often. And was never very successful for very long. And all my friends I had a bunch of really successful female friends who were really tight and we did a ton of stuff together, and we all were pretty big drinkers, and so it felt very normal to me. You know, every happy hour, every kid playdate, every, you know, camping trip. It was always a ton of wine. And what's interesting is that I never told Mike how worried I was about my drinking. Okay. However, I was pretty, quiet. I was pretty defensive about it. I didn't want him to know how much I struggled with, like, worrying about my drinking, feeling hungover in the morning, trying to control it, saying, forget it. I'm fine justifying it. And so, you know, it was more, subtle. Where in the morning sometimes he'd be like, so how are you feeling? And I'd be like, I'm fine, I'm fine. Yeah. You know, what.

Do you mean?

Yeah. And like, because everything else was do it. I mean, I was getting promoted. I had a ton of friends. My was taking care of my kids. Well, you know, I literally at one point told my therapist I'm only hurting myself, you know, like, I'm keeping ever all the balls in the air. And yet it was just this huge backpack of rocks I was carrying around. And for many, many years, I was like, I need to get this under control so that I never have to stop, because stopping drinking was my worst case scenario. I'll hold these fears about I'd never have fun again, and I would spend the rest of my life isolated and bored. And what if I stopped drinking? People would think I had a problem with alcohol so it was in my mind.

I mean, I don't I want to hear from you what your experience was. I stopped for four months when I was 38. My son was five. He was an only child at the time. I actually did go to Alcoholics Anonymous for four months. It wasn't my path. It didn't fit with what I wanted. But I also got pregnant with my daughter for months. And and so I sort of did this slow shuffle away from like, nothing to see here. I'm better. I'm happier not realizing that I was better and happier because I had taken alcohol out of my night. You know, our marriage is better. I'm better at work. I'm more calm. I'm more emotionally stable. Like therefore dot, dot, dot. I can drink again.

Yeah, because it was situational. Lila was born and pretty quickly I was like, hey, I'd like a glass of wine on a date with Mike. And he seemed to be totally fine with that and somehow not raise any eyebrows, even though I'd been to Alcoholics Anonymous, he thought I was. My impression was like, you thought I was overreacting. Going to it. And we can talk about that. And then, you know, it's really easy to then be like, it's a Friday night. Why don't you pick up a bottle of wine? And then pretty easy for me to pick up wine when I went to the grocery store. And pretty quickly, I was back to seven nights a week drinking.

And pretty quickly I was a bottle of wine at night. Girl. So for some reason, in my mind, it was totally normal to drink a bottle of wine seven nights a week. But it was only when, you know, I opened bottle to that. It was like, okay, yeah, this is this is going to be, a hard day the next day. And so it they always say like recovery ruins you for drinking. The entire time I was drinking the second time, I knew it was a problem. I knew it was unsustainable. I knew I was going to have to give it up. And I the the question in my mind was just, can I play this out for a couple more years before I really have to stop?

And it was sort of the death of a thousand cuts. I was in a bunch of online sober groups, but I was drinking, so I didn't share. And then one morning at 3 a.m., I was scrolling through the feed. Someone way braver than me was posting about like, I have another day one. And in the comments, someone suggested a sober coach that I knew about that I'd heard about many times, and I went into work that day, just a random Tuesday, and signed up for her 100 day challenge and emailed her five days a week, seven days a week slowly built up seven days and 30 days and 90 days and never went

back. I felt so much better, but I even at that time didn't tell Mike anything more than I'm doing 100 day alcohol free challenge me as a help kick. Didn't tell me a sober coach didn't tell him I joined an online group that was called Hip Sobriety School. And so that was interesting. But let's go to whatever Mike's experience was. That was me. It's like.

What's the question?

And that was a decade ago.

Well, what was it like for you? I mean, I you know, again, I've been I've been married to my drinking buddy, I got sober, my drinking buddy got worse. I had to be the normie. And the relationship with the person who wasn't pulling it together, and I have. I got stories I could make up about how you experience Cassie's journey. But how did you experience Gacy's journey? Like, what was it like for you to be, had that.

Yeah, certainly. You know, we were we were in the mid 20s when when we met. Right? Yeah. So, you know, alcohol was just part of the social scene. It had never been, I was always a social drinker, even to this day. You know, I think probably one of the great annoyances for Casey about me is I can I can open up a beer at a dinner, and it's still kind of kicking around in different places. Yeah, like throughout the night, you know? Right. I might polish it off for hours later. Yeah.

Forgets about it on the kitchen table. I'm like, who does that? Yeah. Was never a moment that I did not know where my wine glass. Yeah.

And so. Right. So think, you know, that part of the, you know, where where she, you know, where she hit the brakes, you know, after the, you know, after the car runs into the wall sometimes. Right. I was, you know, always kind of, you know, hey, in an hour, here's how I'm going to feel. So. Yeah. All right, I'm going to I'm going to back it down. I don't know. One of the things I think that always made us work was we're not very judgmental. Of of each other. Right. We try to be very careful about that in terms of things that don't directly, you know, impact us. Right? That maybe would be better for somebody else to, to do that way.

But, try really hard to not say, you know, hey, you know, I just want to point out this thing that's, that's, you know, wrong with you. We don't do that. And, you know, so pointing out some of the drinking things would be like, hey, you know, it would be the equivalent of, you know, hey, you know, you might want to go to the gym more, right? You know, it was in that same category. Yeah. You know, you know, rudeness almost in a, in a way. Right. That, here was just part of who, somebody is, how she kind of, you know, saw herself. What? You know, what she found to be, What, entertaining or self-soothing or whatever. Right? No, it's only my problem on that somewhat infrequent, you know, events where, I had to pick up the slack.

As a result, I think probably the the older we got, those probably got more frequent part of that shift, you know? Right. You're like, the way it hits you the next day is, is different your 30s than it is in the, in your 20s. And.

So kids, when I stopped drinking, we had a two year old and an eight year old. Yeah. So if I was useless, a lot more fell on to my ex, right?

Yeah. That's like a lot of things when you have kids, right? I mean, there's this certain, kind of competence pact you make with each other when you, when you have kids, right? You're going to be at the right place at the right time, and you're going to pull your weight in. You know, the same ways that if you were late getting home from work before kids, you want to worried about it. But once you got kids at daycare, you just you can't you can't get away with it anymore because it's not just you. Right?

Just to be clear, though, I never did show up.

This was me when I was late to pick up the kids, right?

Same deal. Seriously, I was I was very, very careful about that.

Yeah, well, once you have kids or before you have kids, sometimes are things are your thing and my thing. And then you have them, and there's this big bucket of things that are our thing now. And so, one of the things that always, I always found really attractive about Casey was her general level of competence. And I think probably, you know, that went, both ways. Right? In relationship. Right. The, the number of things you're like, I don't, you know, I don't really know, like, that's on you. I think it's a real, a real anchor, on, on relationships. So I think we both try pretty hard to not, do that. Right? You know, I read an article a couple of weeks ago. I guess we both read about man keeping right and man.

At times.

You know, this idea that there's these, you know, helpless man babies out there, that their wives have this entire other job of.

Maintaining.

Them, maintaining their, like, keeping that purity.

But man keeping.

Yes. Got it, got it. And so, you know, when she, when she would make the decision to say, stop drinking, right. I just never really thought of that as too much of. It's not that it was my business. Right. But for me to sanction it or not. Right. You know, it would be the same as changing and eating habit or anything else, right? Like. Sounds good. But it's not for me to say, like, that's okay with me or or not. And it it helped that she never, you know, demanded except when she was really trying to get going. That I change my habits as a result of it. I ended up, you know, her big her vice was was wine, red wine in particular. So I gave up. I gave up wine, which I only really pretended to be a big fan of because that's what she liked. And, I, we, you know, we had vacations for years that were built around going to wine areas or whatever, and I was always pretty ambivalent about it.

Brianna, bursary wine tasting, you know, it.

Sounds present.

Right? It took you to neat places and get to hang out together. So, you know, that was the one. The one, you know, thing that I did, I don't, you know, I don't drink wine myself anymore. I certainly have it in the in the house.

Yes. To this day, we do have wine in the house. Like, just because I'm like, I don't drink it. And if people come for a party, I sort of say, okay, here's what we have. Where he drinks beer. Totally fine with that. Then. Never, never with a big issue for me. But if people are coming, I'm like, we're beer, we'll have nonalcoholic beer, we'll have all these other just options. And if you want anything else, BYOB. So people will bring wine and then when we're done, I'm just like, hey, I'm not going to drink this. Why don't you take it home with you? Yeah. And that's worked really well for us.

Yeah.

And, you know, just in general, I mean, you know, I get asked to sometimes friends or whatever, right. How was it for you? And, you know, I think one of the things we've, we've been good at in our relationship is the idea that people get to continue to evolve, even after you get married. And, the idea that you're going to continue to be the same person forever, that you were when you were, what, 28, or 20, you know, three or whatever when we got together? Is it's pretty limiting now we're pretty unfinished, products then. And so, you know, her desire to to first change that habit in her life and then later, you know, she, she left her job and started a whole, whole business. Yeah. That, that that kind of sprung from the, the what she'd experienced and, and the idea that she could do, do well by somebody else and have this, what I'd had for years.

Right. This kind of life's work where I get to help somebody. Yeah. Totally. It's my day. Right. Like, hey, great. You know, go for it. I need you to do what makes you happy.

I guess I have this question because it sounds remarkably zen. It's kind of the experience of like, yeah, I'm just married to this lady, and she had her way of being on the planet, and that was okay. And that's how it went. And have you guys are how would you describe your relationship over the last ten years? Is it better than it was the ten years before that? Is it the same? Is it I mean, are you still like, yeah, it's okay now I'm married to a lady who doesn't drink, and she actually helps other people don't drink. Or is there do you guys have an experience of. No. This changed the way we do marriage.

Yeah, I, I think personally we'll go we'll take turns for me. I think it's better for sure. I mean, when we were young, it we had so much fun. I mean, we would go kayak camping and, like, bring all the beers and wines and we would go on great vacations. And it was really fun. And I always think of that as, like my drinking highlights, right? Like there were good times. I think it's to some extent disingenuous and to be like, oh, it was all terrible. It was really fun. And then it became more and more of a coping mechanism as I got older. Where I was drinking a because it's addictive and the more you drink, the more you're going to want to drink.

It was definitely a habit for me, but it also became something I was very worried about and something that, you know, definitely impacted my mood. When I was trying not to drink, I was irritable, when I was drinking, I was sort of in my happy, dopamine buzzy place for two hours and then slept terribly and then woke up with anxiety and woke up thinking, what the hell's wrong with you? Get your life together. And all of this was very secretive, right? I didn't want him to know, mostly because, I was worried that if I, if I tried to stop and didn't, she would be watching me for the rest of my life. You know, we live together, and and I didn't want him to shift into that. Like, paternal judgment role.

I also just didn't want anyone to know how worried I was about it or how much I thought about it, or how much I struggled with it. So once I stopped drinking, a lot of that went away, right? So after 30 days, I remember asking him, I think we all have fears about what life without alcohol will be like. And I, you know, after 30 days I was like, what do you think? Because I was worried I was boring, you know, we hadn't gone on any dates. I don't, you know, we went different dates. We'd gone to the park and read books. I mean, it was almost like we were in our early 20s again. We kind of go on.

Finding our teens again before you can.

We went to coffee shops and listened to live music. You know, you had to be creative. We went to the movies. You know what you're used to doing, like pub crawls, and bookstores. So, you know, I was worried. He thought I was boring. And what's interesting is, I don't know if you remember it, but what you said to me was that what he noticed with our household was a lot more peaceful. And it was, you know, I used to come home and, you know, just be all riled up about things that had happened at work or very stressed or, outraged by some slight to someone in my mind, it also was like I was gearing up to drink, right? Oh, I deserve this. My life is so hard. This is my one reward.

And then afterwards I stopped drinking. And I feel very lucky that I had the support of a coach and a group and I could work through all of that cravings and triggers and fears with people who got it and people who were ready to support me. So I didn't lay that all on him. But he would be like, how's work? And usually it would be this whole like, oh, this, that, this deadline. And I was like, it was fine. And he was like, fine. And I was like, yeah, I went to a couple meetings. This part was good. This part's behind. Got a lot to eat, went for a walk, and he was like, what do you know? Cause I used to be just drama. So I. I'd learned to switch what I thought was boring for actual peace and contentment, which was pretty cool.

Is that new information for you or.

No, not all that. I mean, you know, some of the way, you know, it's always interesting here. You know, your spouse talk about how they perceived you, you know, responding to things. What came out of it was, you know, the the gaps are always where you're not particularly honest with each other. Right. And so, you know, the what I, what I came to understand was that the, you know, her her drinking was causing a lot of things that were actually, I think, underlying turbulence in the in relationship that wasn't necessarily about the drinking itself.

Right. Like she, she carried a ton of shame about it. Right. And that presents in certain ways. Right. Not saying that I'm, you know, feel ashamed about it, but it comes out in these weird ways. She can handle ton of anxiety. I think about it. I think she was sleeping crummy. Right. All the all the things that, that get in the in the way of, you know, life and communication and in, in all of that, I didn't necessarily know what the cause was or even that there was a different way of being until she stopped drinking, which I think, you know, besides not drinking, she just, you know, got to the root of a whole bunch of other things with, through your coaching and, and whatever else about feeling at peace with yourself. Right.

I started going to therapy weekly. I got on some anti-anxiety meds that I had gone on and off for years, but they actually worked when I wasn't, you know, ingested about every day. I felt more proud of myself. I didn't avoid his eyes in the morning. You know, when you're hungover and your eyes are bloodshot and you feel like they're like, how your how are you feeling? I didn't look him in the eye. I was very busy. I was very stressed about getting the kids to daycare. You know, I was trying to move really fast so he couldn't look at me too closely. Yeah, and all of that kind of went away, Once I stopped drinking and started, you know, saying, actually, here's what I need.

And actually, I'm really tired or I need some time to myself. I mean, all the coping tools that you actually realize you need to develop when you're not not mean out, you actually have to express how you're feeling and figure out what you need, that it's not knocking yourself unconscious with alcohol. Yeah. So I think it made us a lot closer.

I mean, there was a whole honesty barrier right around, just a lot of things. You weren't honest about why you were feeling a certain way. Yeah. You know, there are a lot of times that my assumption was you were probably upset with me about something when you were attacked. You're upset with yourself about. Yeah. About something. And so the, the honesty level has gone up not just in like this particular area, but I think in some, some other, areas too. You're just not quite that you can get in the habit of being not dishonest with each other, but not true, you know, not truthful either. Yeah. About here's where I am, here's how I'm feeling. Right. And she did want to say I'm hung over, right. Yeah. So it was, stressed.

Right.

And so so you're peeling through this, all these little, you know, lack of, of truths and, then you can just interpret those however you want, right? Which is usually, wrong and, and catastrophizing and so, you know, and the other thing, I think, thing that that changed was she was she was always been a good mom, but she's a much more she became a much more deliberate, you know, force, especially in times like the evenings. Yeah. When. Right. You know, a lot of, you know, my big thing that always used to upset me was when, you know, she'd fall asleep on the couch. And it's my job to, like, get her up, but, you know, get her to bed and whatever else. And, you know, that became a lot of like, hey, make sure I, you know, my job was to kind of make sure the kids got to sleep.

Yeah. I'm a I'm a parent. I can do that. Right. But, you know, the the it's the knock on effects, right? You know, within a year after when she stopped drinking, she was, you know, tucking our daughter was, what, two, three, three at the time. And every night, you know, they would spend an hour up there. Yeah. You know, talk and reading stories and had to be in a hurry to get back. And so.

Yeah.

You know, you see all these places where what you had was fine, but there ended up being this other level of, of happiness, contentment available.

I wasn't rushing down and trying to get my daughter to sleep so I could sit on the couch with another glass of wine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.

I really had this this almost, new deliberateness, I guess, to the trip to the relationship. And there was, frankly, I guess like more time and energy, to spend on it, right where, you know, I knew, right? If I wanted to, if I wanted to really get with her and and get into something, it had to be pre about 8:00. Yeah. Right after that, you know, it was kind of hit or miss on whether or not it was going to be fully remembered in the morning and that was was something that was probably my biggest thing I like better. Right about.

Yeah. Was that you, gray out blackout drinker? Pretty much always. Not all the time, but often enough. Yeah, that he would sort of be like, we talked about this and I would pretend, oh yeah, of course, you know, try to like, figure out what we talked about. Or are you messing with me? Did we talk about it? So, that went away pretty quickly. And I, had gone through enough back and forth and fighting, wanting to quit drinking that pretty closely. The last time I was like, yeah, I'm not going back. I'm going to use all my tools. I feel better. And, you know, when someone's happier in the relationship and proud of themselves and more content, the whole relationship gets better. Yeah.

And she look better too. There you go. Mean it right. Like. Yeah. It was that. That was good, matey.

Do you have a vise at your vise?

Yeah. I'm not terribly into, vices particular. Right. You know, I,

Do go to work and do my job and show up and do the thing.

Yeah, right. You know, so, you know, I'm not, Yeah. Not a particularly addictive personality I've not found. Right. Like, you know, okay, so if she wants, you know, she's going to do something she, like, she's locked into whatever that thing is. And, Yeah, I know I got a lot of other stuff going on. Right? You know, I got I got a job trying to win a state title. I got hired to take care of, So. Yeah, it wasn't really. It wasn't. Wasn't totally my bag.

We used to make jokes. My girlfriends and I, especially when you were in your 20s and 30s, we were like, it's nice to be my buddy because you, you know, he had the summers off when he was teaching sixth grade. He played baseball. He coached baseball and basketball. He went on fishing trips 2 or 3 times a year. And so I think that a lot of my drinking also, once we had kids, was my universe, for better or worse, kind of shrunk where it was a family vacation or work or home. I realized after I quit drinking that that was to some extent my fault and choice. Meaning I became sort of a martyr about it.

Yeah.

And I remember after I stopped drinking, you know, we had a three year old and Mike was going on a fishing trip, and I was in charge of both little kids and, while working full time at a pretty big job. And I hadn't gone on vacation without the kids. And, you know, however long we took family trips. And I was talking to my best friend and, you know, complaining and a little bitter. Yeah. And she said to me, is it that you don't want my wife to be happy, or is it that you aren't happy? And I was like, man, damn. So, I was like, it is that I am not happy. And I had removed the alcohol and had a therapist and was like, all right, this is true time. And I believe I, pretty quickly booked a trip down to Santa Barbara with one of my friends, and it was amazing.

I said, that sounds good.

Yeah. Of course. Like he didn't want me to be a martyr. It was just I was not advocating for myself. And so I started hiring a lot more babysitters. And because he was busy, like a lot of weekends, he was gone all day Saturday. And then he had a baseball game when his coaching was over. And, you know, it's felt like for a long time that everything that he wanted to do took precedence. He had a trip booked, he had XYZ. He everything was an annual event. And finally I was like, you know what, I want my stuff. So I went on, you know, recovery retreats, just Salt Spring Island, BC and slept in a year with my girlfriends and paid the money. I, you know, two years ago went to Provence with four girlfriends who are all sober. And, you know, I just made myself happier. Yeah.

I love that. I'm imagining that there are a lot of, people, women in particular, who are listening to this and they're going, I recognize myself, I recognize this, these sentences I have. So if they are and they're like, hey, I want to I want to do something about that. Like, Casey, where where do you point them? What do you what do you want them to know about you or, how you can help?

I mean, the first step, I think, is I have a podcast. It's called the Hello Some Day podcast for sober curious women. And it is all about exploring your relationship with alcohol and how to take a longer term break from it. And the benefits of not drinking and coping tools. And, it's really geared towards, a lot of my audience are pretty successful working moms who, like me, drank a lot, to as their favorite reward is their way to cope with their social circle and really taking away a lot of the stigma between deciding not to drink, looking at that's a net positive, and looking at it with curiosity and excitement, but also

with tools. And so that is a great place to start. Zach is going to come on soon and talk about, marriage and sobriety and just to work on that. And so we do a lot around that and around like perfectionism and, different responses and fear. So that's a great place to start. I also have a program. It's called the Sobriety Starter Kit. It's just for women. And, you know, there's a community around it and coaching and all that good stuff.

Cool. Yeah. Well, I will, we'll make sure to point people in that direction. And, I obviously I'm an advocate for, taking your relationship with alcohol seriously. I think, you know, Mike, you do have this sort of special benefit that it's not a thing. You have to spend a lot of time thinking about her. Or. And that's amazing. And, but if it's a thing in your life that is that you're struggling with, by all means, like, take a step, take any step. And, if Casey's podcast and help, then I will point you in that direction. And. Yeah, I get to come visit and hang out in a couple of weeks. And, we'll see if we have something that we can offer people.

So thank you both for coming on today and for just letting us inside the your relationship. I have so many other questions about your kids and about your, you know, your professional journey and all that stuff, but I feel like we covered a lot of ground. So I'm grateful that you you gave me some of your sunny Sunday afternoon.

Thank you so much.

Hey, nice to meet you.