Session 2 | Get Over Yourself (and Into Us)

Since we last talked, which was, I don't know, was it a week ago? Ten days ago or so?

Some days I think.

As far as you know, do you feel better or worse or the same about your relationship? Can I start?

Sure.

I mean, it was a pretty lively, lively conversation last time, and I think it really kind of, you know, opened up, I think some good, honest communication.

Yeah, I, I crashed after it, but it also had to do with form hormones. Long story. But, I would say I kind of, like, took a nosedive and then came out the other end. And I'm feeling better about things now.

Yeah, I feel like that. Yeah. Go ahead.

What is what.

Better like when you say better. Like, how do you measure it when people when you're when you're thinking about your like finances, you go, I have more money in the bank than I did a year ago. That's better. But like, if you think about I'm feeling better than I did ten days ago. What is that?

Maybe less stuck.

Okay.

Less. But is that. Well, again, like, I, to give you context, I am like a 58 year old menopausal woman who just started HRT and missed taking progesterone, which is. And I'm on testosterone and estrogen. So estrogen and testosterone without progesterone manifests as high anxiety. And so I was like wondering why I was feeling so very anxious. And I kind of like, you know, like broke down crying on the day after. I think we met on a Sunday. And on Monday I was just like a wreck, feeling like I was not losing my mind, but like kind of spiraling into an anxious depression.

Which I did in my early 30s. And it's you know if you've ever been there, it's terrifying. And then things kind of I reached out to some friends about hormones and they're like, oh you're taking your progesterone right. I was like, oh, actually, like I've been kind of missing it at night. And they're like, oh no, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no. So I got that. But the the like anxiety and the talking again we don't have a problem talking to each other but we there's certain things as you could probably tell that we get we get stuck on. And so that that feels like the, the tire in the mud that just goes deeper and deeper and deeper. And I think we were able to I don't know just the fact of, of doing this with you and just saying like what our real fears are like I'm afraid of losing him.

I've had a failed marriage, a lot of that failed marriage. The the narrative was that I had changed so much since we first were together. That and he longed for the old me and that just sounds like that's so that's very triggering and terrifying for me. So I get I feel very threatened when IRA longs for the good old days pre kids. Having sex six days a week and you know or actually six days on the first day of our marriage. Six times. The first day of our marriage. So it just was really triggering. But sometimes it's like saying, you know, like I'm actually scared of losing you, saying what the real fear is and that, like, I don't know that I could survive that hopes to be just like, all right, I see you.

And I think, you know, I think in your first marriage he longed for the old days before you had a spiritual awakening. You know, he was longing for you to revert to an unhealthier state. True. Right.

Right.

So, so which is a different thing than my my longing for you to move into a healthier state. He was kind of wishing you would go back to your unhealthy state.

Which he thought was a healthier state. Right. You know, I think also like the unspoken fear for me is that I've felt kind of really stuck in certain of my health situations and feeling like scared that this is the rest of my life. And saying that, like, I'm scared that I'm never going to get another good night's sleep. I'm scared that I am going to be on edge all the time. Like I'm scared that I'm going to get fat and, like, become unattractive, unappealing, unattractive, like, So I don't know if any of that I can't really packaged up very neatly, but yeah. And again, none of it's new. Like we have been through this cycle before.

Yeah.

But I think what I think, you know, what feels good is to not that it feels good, but it was good to speak truth, to be honest, to have the hard conversation, because I think we have had it in the past. But I feel like it's it's kind of like an alarm and or a pillow more than. Like dealing with it. And, yeah. So I think having that conversation and then, I mean, Andrew did have a really rough day that next day. I mean, she was like on the verge of a nervous breakdown, like.

I mean, I have been on I have had a nervous breakdown and I don't think that was.

That's what you told me you said.

I'm not ready to.

Have a nervous.

But I felt so fragile and so anxious.

And we laid on the couch and I just held her and she.

Kind of, I just ugly cried and then had my therapist and ugly cried for an hour.

Yeah.

So, but I also think I'm like releasing a lot of cortisol that's been stored up over the years.

There's something very real about the like the body's part and all this, like, if you're not I mean, even I don't want to say to Irish point, but like to take care of your body is a spiritual exercise. It is a way that you take care of your relationships, you know, to make sure that you are properly medicated, that you are exercising, that you're not too dependent on substances of this sort or that sort of like that's part of the it's part of the jam when it comes to being healthy in relationships. So I'm cool. That's cool that you're aware of it. And yeah, take your meds like take your meds in the appropriate way at the appropriate time so that you can show up authentically and without some of the extra baggage that comes with, you know, just not having your head on straight.

It seems like I don't want to speak for you, but part of what we're dealing with is can we talk about your recent autism.

Sure. Yeah.

So you know, we've recently Andrew has recently found out that she is on the autistic spectrum. Which there's a masking element that, you know we're intentionally letting go those masks, which is scary but really healthy. And also but I think a big part of the autism thing is, is executive function. I think, you know, I think Andrea's you know, a lot of this whole, challenge has been executive function around. I think she really wanted to do certain things, but it's a hard to make yourself do it. You know, it, even though there's that desire to. That. Yes, that makes sense. Of course. I want to take care of myself because I want to take my meds. Of course I want to.

Yeah. I guess the urgency of caring for other people, e.g. my kids and the dog and the cat, and sometimes this guy is just easier than taking care of myself. Because it's more urgent and pressing.

Yeah.

But yeah. But I know but it's like a scary realization that I'm not getting younger. Like I'm a, I'm a strong person. And I think for most of my life I've been really hale and hearty and I'm scared of that fragility of getting older.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. And you know, this isn't rocket science, but I'm. I'm convinced that the way you take care of those people is that you take care of yourself, you know? And that's a hard thing to wrap your head around sometimes. But it is like I'm. As I get older, I'm clearer and clearer about that.

Absolutely.

It's that foundation for anything in life, right? Not only taking care of yes for taking care of other people, but for anything in life. You know, we have to have energy. We have to have a groundedness. Yeah. We have to not be stuck in bed. You know, we have to be able to. Yeah, yeah. Things.

You know, you said something last time, IRA, that I want to follow up on it. It's, there's a little bit of my own story in here, too, which is, you know, I used to have a legitimate contempt for people who would champion this, like, take care of yourself first, because I was raised as a good Christian boy. This is the phrase you used last time. Good Christian boy. I heard my dad say, like, you got to take care of yourself. And I thought he was a narcissist. And he was. But like the idea that, like, somehow you had to look out for number one seemed really antithetical to me and actually, like, sinful, you know, and the again, the older I get, the more I'm like, hey, no.

Like, that's how you serve other people is that you show up in your best brain, your best self. How do you how do you reconcile some of that as, through just through your own story? Like, tell me about. I'm just curious about how you use that phrase and then how you have come to this philosophy, like, what is that story for you?

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, from I can start on a more theoretical level, like, you know, there's that difference between being selfish, right? And choosing the bigger piece of ice cream, a cake or like, you know, stealing from other people or, you know, not being honest. Those kind of selfishness, of course, is bad for you. Right? So I kind of self focus when it's over other people. Of course that's that's not on any moral structure is not good to do. But I think taking care of yourself, I think, you know, from a Christian perspective, I think of, you know, the great commandment, love your neighbor as yourself. I love the idea that my neighbor is actually part of myself right? Actually, when I love Andrea, when I love my kids, when I love other people.

Because we are one, because we are interconnected. Because we're the same, you know, the same, being on a larger level, it is actually self love too. So but I mean, for me, when I, I mean, for me, I spend I'm a yoga and, you know, I took I love doing yoga. I've had my yoga teacher training. For me, it's worship, you know, like being in my body. I just it's so good for my head, you know, like, when I'm stressed, if I can exercise, I just feel so much more grounded and better in it, and and it's and it feels it feels like I'm connecting to God and the earth and to all things, and in a way. So it doesn't feel selfish to me. It actually feels it feels transcendent to me. It feels like I'm connecting to Earth and I'm connecting to the sky. I'm connecting to others. Like there's this this, it definitely doesn't feel selfish to be in my body.

Yeah.

I think that's I think I think that I probably rooted in more of a, substance dualist kind of dualism. Active of spirit, good body, bad mentality, that is, that has corrupted Western civilization. Certainly the church for. Yeah, thousand years. That is directly called heretical, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Can I add something? Which is I think that if you have had, you know, I think I mentioned that I was, sexually abused when I was five years old.

I was.

Raped by a 13 year old neighbor kid. Twice.

Yeah. I'm so sorry.

And when that.

Brutal.

And I carry that with me, and I've done a lot of work around it, but I still think that my body is kind of a battleground. I think when you have such an early stance and my family was very disembodied or.

Or who was your family? Who who's your family?

Who's my family?

Mom and dad?

Origin. Mom and dad and brother.

Okay. And mom and dad, are they. There's this sentence, they said they're not here. Okay. And your brother, where's he?

He's in New York.

And what was your job like in your family, like? Sorry, I just I don't mean to be like, cyber clinical, but, like, just to understand the landscape, like in your family. What was the. You said, disembodied. But what was your job in your family?

To be the hysterical one. To be the one who was too sensitive to be the one who was, hyper emotional to to feel all the pain that was coursing through my family. That was never acknowledged. Oh, that's a good. I was the feeler.

Yeah. Which wasn't, which wasn't welcomed or wasn't celebrated or, or rewarded.

No. No. Yeah. Absolutely not.

Yeah. That's a drag.

So you know the, the body means something else and the like naturally, I'm an incredibly physical person. Like, I remember as a kid, I. I was hyper athletic. I joined in being in my body.

I.

Think that changed. Or it just became being in my body sexually as I became a teenager and acted out sexually. So I'm still offloading a lot of junk. So happy.

Yeah.

I always feel better when I exercise. Like, I have no problem with exercise for some reason. It's almost like I it it's not like I don't exercise like I did parties this week. I swam in the ocean this week. Right. Yeah. Long distance swam I'm going to play. So I do. But consistency and intensity is has been an issue, an exact contention for sure.

And it would help OCD. If you have OCD like me, you can just be like, I'm going to do 10,000 steps a day and you like, don't miss it or else you like, you sacrifice other things like sanity.

It's.

IRA, who's your family? Sorry. Your family is mom and dad.

Do we need a diagram?

Yes, we definitely.

Need what they call it.

A white chart whiteboard for them.

What do they call that thing? It's a, Sheena Graham. Is it a diagram? Is that the work?

I think a graph. Yeah. My, I have two dads. I, my biological dad who I didn't know until I was 26, and then I grew up in a just a single mom. And then her new boyfriend, who is my first sister's dad, and then, and then my.

Is he your second dad? No, no, we'll get there.

I know when I was five and a half, my mom's current boyfriend, who is after my sister's dad. It does. It gets complicated here. I brought a friend back from the bar who is drunk, who ended up being my adopted dad.

Charlie.

Brown. And so,

That's four total. That's four total dads, right? There's bio dad, there's sisters, dad, there's current boyfriend, and then there's drunk adoptive dad who is not related or dating any currently people.

Right. Ended up dating and marrying his mom.

So that's how they met. And, I'm actually met him when he came in that night, and we. I got up out of bed and I like, we totally connected and decorated the house for.

Five and a half.

I'm five and a half. Yeah. And then in the morning, mom met him. So the dad and I have this special connection. There's like, we've.

Dad is Charlie.

Yeah, Charlie. So he's my adopted dad. Yeah, but I didn't meet until I was five. Yeah. And.

Okay. Andrew, when when were you raped?

When I was five.

Five? Five is the big year for each of you.

And both of us. Five? Yeah. Of course, it was a really different my life.

Yeah, well, for different reasons, but it's the it's the seminal year, the pivotal year.

Life, unfortunately. Yeah. Really incredibly healing in my life to get a dad because I didn't really. Yeah. Okay. Down till I was around five, you know, had snorers dad who I'd call dad. And then when my parents when they were breaking up, you know, I called him dad, and he's like, IRA, don't call me dad. I'm not your dad. You know, which was true, but it was like, oh, wow, I really don't have a dad.

Is he still in your life?

No.

Okay.

No. But yeah, when Charlie came on the scene, and, you know. So my parents are hippies. If you haven't picked that up, and, Yeah. Like, we lived in a van in the woods and the, you know, for several years, tents and moving all around the West Coast and Colorado and then eventually bought a school bus and converted a school bus into a home. And then I was, Charlie and my mom, mom and dad had three more kids. So I have, I'm the oldest of five that I grew up with. And then, yeah, we were homeschooled in the woods. And Washington state, went from, like, happiness to conservative Christian hippies. You can imagine. And then I reconnected with my birth dad when I was 26. And then he has, so two daughters that I connected with in two. So I actually, I have,

You now have three sisters.

1 or 1 of seven, siblings, one of seven kids.

Wow.

Okay.

And then you have a job. What would you say your job was in your family.

And then my mom passed away, and, a 2018. So now it's two dad's, job in my family. I was the golden child, firstborn. Good Christian boy. You know, like, great in school, intelligent, can learn things easily. Hard worker. You know, I had my I was also really into, like, punk music and skateboarding, and but it wasn't it wasn't like, you know, rejection of of.

It was the old boys, right? It wasn't.

That. It was like Christian.

Was, like.

Yeah.

So I really wanted to listen to the, you know, all the, you know, we weren't allowed because we were conservative Christian hippies. Yeah. Wasn't allowed to listen to. And I'd be on a Christian record label and all that bullshit. But, yeah, so my job was that, kind of, Yeah. Hardworking, responsible, good Christian boy. Yeah. Those are all my family. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm fascinated by just the serendipity. That's the wrong word. I'm fascinated by the five year olds. These two little five year old.

Never thought about that before.

Yeah. Yeah. You've got one whose world kind of falls apart and gets broken at the same time. That another world kind of gets healed and fixed, and then those people grow up and I, you know, I have some curiosity about how much those two five year olds are in conversation with each other, you know, like, even now, that is just, is there a place of inquiry for me and for you guys, I think. What's that?

What's the what in the psychological perspective, what stage of development as five years old, like what is being developed? And, you know, I.

Have theories about this, but I can't I can't put them in like, academia, I think, like, I sort of think fourth grade is the beginning of consciousness. Like if fourth grade is the beginning of people kind of going, oh, yeah, this is what my childhood is like. Usually if I ask somebody about their childhood, they'll say, oh yeah, this is what it was like. And they're usually about fourth grade. And then I'll say what it was like being one more time.

That's interesting.

Yeah. Is that true for you?

I remember I remember a little I remember very far back.

Yeah. Of course.

Like to be too.

Yeah, yeah.

I have very clear memories of everything. I mean.

I think you're a little bit of an outlier, of course, because of specific capital T trauma for sure.

But I don't have a lot of memories of my early childhood, too. And, you know, and they're very embodied, you know, that early childhood, it's just it's simple, you know, and then it's true. Yeah. Right. Maybe around fourth grade or so is when maybe that being able to see yourself in third person.

Yeah. And start to have language and go, this is who I am. This is what I think. You know, I think if you locate yourself during recess, like during the fourth grade, that there's probably version of whatever that is that you're still doing right now. And then people make sense of their relationships, usually around eighth grade. It's like middle school when they look at their parents and they go, oh, this is what relationships are like. This is what relationships mean. So, you know, five is I would say sort of pre consciousness, but it's where we form or continuing to form real attachment stories and attachment themes. They of course predate five for sure.

But like, you know, you're, you're forming critical how to exist on the planet realities inside of your five year old body. That then you start to collect language around in a few years, language and then you start to collect context around if few just later. And I think a lot of times we don't we don't intentionally course correct.

Like, we perfect these skills, for survival and safety when we're young. And then we we we we transition into relationships, adult relationships. And the things that we're really good at are protection as protection skills. You know, they're not intimacy skills. And so if you don't learn intimacy skills like thoughtfully and intentionally, then, sure, life sneaks up on you and, you know, you marry the wrong person, or you marry for the wrong reason, or you, you know, you you find out you, you thought you wanted X and you wanted y, or you don't know how to handle change.

Right. Spiritual awakening or bodily awakening like we don't we didn't. And learn how to do that when we were young. We were just trying to figure out how to stay safe and say, you know, okay, so. I don't know I don't know if there's meat there necessarily for the two of you to think about, but there is something about that. Those formative five year old stories that are is still present here, you know, and the story that you're telling, yourselves about your relationship for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. How do you heal that five year old. How do you.

Well that's the miracle question isn't it. Right. That's the big, big thing I think that there's a well I know there's a whole sort of domain in and around therapy called re parenting. And re parenting acknowledges that our parents didn't get it right. And that. Our parents were flawed and broken and didn't know how to honor, feelings, didn't know how to, you know, honor personality, didn't know how to. I mean, they were just trying to do. But they knew how to do, you know, usually unskilled, usually unintentional. So who parents you? Well, in theory, it's the it's the version of you that's finally figured it out.

The mature, thoughtful, functional, wise, sober version of you. Now, so, you know, how do you feel that there's lots of different mechanisms? I sometimes I encourage clients literally to imagine being five. Imagine five year old you, wherever you are in your in your space, like your bedroom, the woods, whatever you're doing. And then in walks you.

Current you.

Current. Yes, 58 year old you you know, here comes you and little you little five year old. You like what? Hold on. What? Mom? And you're like no no no no, hold on, hold on, hold on. It's a this is weird. Super weird. But it's. I'm I'm you like, this is this is. I'm you in the future and literally like, have that conversation. Have it in writing, have it in your brain. Like, what do you have to offer that kid? That she or he needs.

I've everything to offer that kid.

Right? But she didn't get it at five. But re parenting is giving it to her now so that we can reframe 5 to 58 in a way that brings something like healing, something like perspective, something like maturity, right? Where you go, hey, listen. Something. Works out. This is fucked up. What you're dealing with right now is a big deal, and you're going to pay the price for a while because your parents never figured out how to let you, feel. But let me tell you what you're really good at. Let me tell you what. You where you thrive. Let me tell you what this builds in you.

Let me tell you. You meet a guy, you get you get to parent people. In the future. You get to do it different. Like this is re parenting and re parenting is really powerful. If you, you know, if you do it in a I don't want to say a steward a way, but at least in a, in a way that brings maturity into some of these really formative spaces, particularly if your parents didn't. Well, and Andrew, your parents didn't.

They did not.

You know.

I don't think your parents did either, in some ways.

You know, my mom, I think, really loved me. And then my dad really did when he came on the picture. But when we hit teenage years, they didn't know how to parent teenage, you know, they're really great with little kids. You know, at teen age, they didn't know how to equip us for the future.

Yeah. Well I'm interested in the thing that I sort of I started with, which is this idea that how are you feeling, you know, better or worse at the same, a little bit better. Andrew you said I feel a little bit less stuck. I mean part of what is so troubling for people is that they just feel stuck and they're stuck because they, they don't have, they're not thinking creatively. Well, not always, but they're not thinking creatively, or they don't have the opportunity to think creatively about how to come at this thing called life from different angles, with different perspectives and different parts of your yourself. And I don't know if that's what you're describing right now, but the way that you, you, the way you kind of break free from the the inherited story is you, you poke holes in it and you chip away at it.

You you respond to it. This sort of this famous notion about trauma that is doesn't belong exclusively to Gabor Marty. But he popularized this, this notion that trauma isn't what happens to you. It's what happens inside of you because of what happens to you. And if that doesn't get the care that it needs, sure, you're going to walk around feeling off balance and disconnected and, disembodied, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, it's funny, the thinking about five year old Andrea and walking in and talking to her, it just and telling her that that I have what she can, what can take care of her like it just makes so much sense in a, in a way. Around this idea that I haven't been able to take care of myself adequately, because I've been taking care of everyone else. But maybe I can befriend that five year old. I mean, I know that intellectually, but, yeah, you know, spend time rather than to berate her, rather than to expect so much and not understand why she can't do.

Of course, of course, you would never do that to your actual five year old.

No, son.

Daughter, you wouldn't, you wouldn't even think of it. Why would you do it to her.

That's the million dollar question right.

That's and that's the I mean I think this is the idea of re parenting is going back and saying we can we can we have something to offer you. You're going to be okay. You know, and that's like necessary actually. Let me ask you this question. Just aware of the value of our, our time. And what we're talking about is if we talk again in ten days, it's going to be sooner, but let's just say it's ten days because that's the thing. If we talk again in ten days and I ask you the same question, are you doing better or worse at the same about the relationship?

And you said, better. You said, well, I feel better about the relationship, not a a better all better not probably not going to happen. But like better than today. What happens for you in the next ten days? This is where it is. It's not in the future. It's in the next ten days. You know, better isn't out there in 2030 or it's it's in your house in your space, in your time that you're in right now. What does better practically, actually, functionally look like for the two of you and the next ten days?

Can I can I speak to that first?

You got 2%.

I think for me it is taking the time to spend time with myself that's not distracted by, you know, I've had a very hard time in recent years spending time delving into myself because it. Yeah, because it's hard. And I think because I'm scared and I don't necessarily like that it's easier for me to externalize things and take care of other people. To watch Netflix and chill or you know but I think to take the kind of time that he takes with himself, which I have in recent years felt resentful of, like I have felt like you're so, inflexible about like, you know, this is what you do. And I'm like, but can you make an exception? And that's built up resentment in me. Which I'm I'm confessing to you that I do have this resentment built up against it, but I do see how important it is and how good it is for you.

To do that, and I would love to reach the point where I could do that for myself without like just spending, spending that time rather than like calling somebody on the phone to like check in to see how they're doing. Like check in with myself.

Sure.

I just know I if I don't take that time in the morning I won't do it because then I get caught up in my day and I just won't do it. And so I just know to take care of myself, I have to do it in the morning because then I get on the day and there's a million things on around. And so that's just for me.

So I think, I think actually, like if I take care of myself, I'm going to feel better about the relationship, okay? Because I'm better resourced, I'm just going to be better resourced and okay.

And that includes 58 year old you and five year old you.

Well, I need to let that five year old. Who's an exile.

Yeah. She's which means she's lonely and scared.

And I've done a lot of like internal family systems work in the past. Yeah. And I know she's, she's an exile that has a lot of protectors around her. Definitely. I've never really been able to access her.

Well that's why we invented an imaginary time machine.

I'm so glad we got invention whoever. And that should get billions of dollars.

Yeah. All right. What are you if, if you come out next week and I say, hey, how are you feeling? Better was is the same. And you say, better. What changes what's changing for you in the next ten days or so?

It's keeping my heart out there and doing the hard work of being honest. You know, I think my tendency is just to absorb things and to kind of be the victim. Yeah, I just might be the victim. And, you know, I think for, for me, it's just continuing to be honest that no, everything isn't perfect. You know, like, everything isn't fine, you know, like. To be but you know, but to simultaneously, you know, be very loving and fully embracing and fully connective, you know, had to do those two things. Two arms, you know honesty and love I think telling the truth and love I think is with my heart and not and I put my heart out there even if it can get hurt.

Yeah. Well you've unintentionally reinforced a theory that I'm having that I'm, that I'm forming and feeling more and more committed to, which is that I think I've figured out the secret to a happy marriage. I think I know what it is to to part. Yeah. I'm going to give it to you right now.

Secret?

Yeah. It's two parts. And number one is you got to get over yourself like, people who are more committed to themselves than to their relationship are not going to have healthy relationships. And that's different than people who are more committed to themselves than to the other. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are more committed to their pain, their trauma, their preferences, their style of relating, you know, their hopes, their dreams, than they are to the relationship are going to have a hard time. And so I think you're right in the sense of you, I think you will feel better than relationship if you spend the next ten days or a lifetime really concentrating on, like taking care of yourself, taking care of yourself so that you can access the part of you that is ready to do relationship with that person, with the person next to you on the couch. You know.

That's thing. One thing too, is do more of the things that your partner likes, and fewer of the things that your partner doesn't like. Which is hard to do if you're not taking care of things. One like thing one is going to keep you from doing thing two. But thing two is about appreciating who your next to, learning as much as you can about what they like, doing more of that, learning as much as you can about what they don't like, and doing less of that. And then you know, I think you feel better ten days later, one year later, ten years later, but that's a constant that's a constant process that you have to kind of recycle. You know, I got to get over myself and I.

Think one again, can you just clearly say that because I heard two things when you said that one was concentrate more on the relationship than yourself. But then I heard, really take care of yourself so that you can concentrate on the other thing.

One is get over yourself, like like get over the maybe it's maybe the easier thing or the better thing to say is to get over the the self ish self, the self, you know, that you were describing a little bit earlier, like the one who wants more cake.

This language does not help us in this self right now.

It's true. But the part of the part that wants more cake, right?

Like like the ego, the ID, the yeah, the, Cuz I feel like our true self is this deep, deep self is the real self. That is. Yeah. Up to to God and connected.

And maybe it's take care of yourself. Maybe it's maybe it's parent yourself. Maybe it's be your why is this self be your functional self. Be your sober self. Maybe that's thing one. You know. So that you can with integrity and intention and consistency do thing two more that your partner likes, fewer things that your partner doesn't like. So.

That's just connect to your real self by getting over your, kind of, your selfish kind of ego. Yeah. And short sighted desires. And connect your real self, your full self.

It's really it's your child of self, your adolescent self. You're your adaptive self.

Basically it's about adult sobriety.

Yeah. That me totally.

Well I you know, I come from a long line of alcoholics and even though I would say that I've never been an alcoholic per se, I've always relied on alcohol to soften the boundaries. And I have, for the most part given up alcohol. This past year, I'll dip in and have a drink here and there. Then I and then and it's very different. But then I it also showed me how I was using other things like Netflix, like watching, you know, even things that are innocuous can can be. Indulging in a non sober lifestyle.

Yeah. So 100%.

Sobriety about oneself is a hard edge thing. But I think it's also what needs to happen in order to to get over yourself.

Yeah, totally.

No, but not just always be serious, right.

Yeah. Like.

You know, like, how do you have connect with Miss Andrea?

Don't you miss, like, tipsy girl I make out with you in the corner, girl.

Yeah, I do, I do or, you know, that's that question is how do you, like, not medicate and distract yourself from reality. But then and actually, you know, really engage in the substance of what's real while at the same time having a childlike love of life and of the present moment and being free, you know, like how? Because. Because definitely there's a sobriety that is really boring and correct. Right. And then there's a sobriety that is has this childlike energy that's just incredibly life giving. Like, what's the difference between those two? Sobriety.

Yeah. Well, I kind of love that we've ended up here. I call it relational recovery. It is just the category that I think about a lot. I'm I am I'm an actual recovery. I'm sober five years now. So, and I found that giving up alcohol was pretty easy. My last drink was on the 13th of November. My. By Thanksgiving, I was done thinking about alcohol, but recovery from anger and resentment and from relational trauma was a lot harder. And it was the real work. You know, and I feel sober. I feel sober from alcohol, but I feel sober from anger and resentment, and I feel clearheaded, and I feel fun, and I feel interesting and I feel curious, and I think you can get there and that, that is a worthy endeavor and one that I think we can talk more about.

So what do I feel like the but is our time is up.

Well because that is the reality.