Staying When It Would’ve Been Easier to Leave with Dana and Sean

Who are Dana and Sean and, How did you meet? What's what's your story? Where'd you come from?

You're a talker.

I need.

To talk to you. Don't you? Don't. Don't fret. You might have to.

Pull a little bit. That's not a sign. And I actually met as little kids are. We went to the same church. We had a small church, and our families went to the church together. And then, so we were probably. I was five, maybe he was eight. And then his family left. Our church had like a couple of church splits. And so his his family left and they went to another, church. So we really didn't have a lot of interaction for, I don't know, five, six, seven years, something like that. And then or maybe longer, we ended up reconnecting in high school. And so he's, three years older than me. So he's actually the same age and grade as my older sister. So I for years just saw him as my sister's Ryan. And then when we got to high school, we reconnected as friends first and then started a relationship my sophomore year and his senior year in high school. Right.

Do you remember each other as children? Like, do you remember each other as, like three, five, seven years old?

I do, he remembers me.

He has this crazy story that he likes to tell himself. But look ahead and tell you a little story.

I won't put you out there like I did, but I do remember her, sunshine girl. She had a big forehand.

That's what I used to call me because of my,

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, if you want me to tell, I would tell it, but, Yeah, I want you to tell it. One day when I went over, I went over. I was playing out a neighborhood one over there. See her sister for somethin, and. Dana, what are you at this time for? Now, let me see. I had to say maybe I say 12, 11, 12, I don't know, 13 somewhere. 13 around that time?

No, that would have been to all because you said I was little.

I don't know what I can't remember age.

Like 8 or 9. Okay.

But she. Okay.

She, came to the door and said I had to tell you a secret. How's that? Okay. And she kissed me on the cheek and ran off. And so.

You don't know this, do you know? Do you know this.

Recollection I have? But I will say that I did, like, two kiss boys at a young age. And so it could have happened, but, Yeah, you know.

Yeah, I just think, like, I have this pet theory that I'm wondering about, which is that by the time we're in fourth grade, we've sort of figured out who we are. So you like. I think consciousness begins around fourth grade. So if I asked you about your childhood, what's interesting about your childhood is that you share it at some level. Like, do you know who you were then? In a way that is also true of you now? Like, is there are there versions of this story that you have from elementary school or from your childhood that you can say, oh yeah, and that's still true right now. Like, do you still like to kiss boys?

Not not boys. I would say that one boy does one. That's like a good one. You're trying to get me in trouble years, right?

Right.

I, I do, though, I think the what the person that I remember, I have lots of good childhood memories of who I was. I think I was a go getter. So obviously, if I wanted this boy and kiss him on the cheek, that's why I'm like, it could have happened like that. That feels on brand for who I was at that age. But I think I have always been a go getter. I've not been afraid to go after what I want. I've always been, pretty confident, even though I had a pretty dysfunctional childhood. But for some reason, it was almost like I was able to kind of separate what was going on in my home from who I was as a person. And I've always been just optimistic, joyful. I'm still that way today. So I think there are a lot of things from my childhood that are still true about me today.

Yeah. Why do you think so?

It's an interesting question. I mean, I mean, I grew up with a single mom, and so. I don't know if I could say that about me because I really started to figure myself out. As an adult, as I got older and to therapy and different things. So I don't I can't really say I agree, but I don't disagree. You know, because I do remember some things that I was having fun, you know, kind of like I am. So I guess it can be true, you know, but it was just I didn't really figure myself out until later on in life.

So understanding if you'll indulge in my theory for just for a little bit longer, like I like to ask or imagine, do you remember what you were doing during recess, like in fourth grade? What what were you doing? Where you were you off in the corner or were you in the middle of all the stuff? Were you deleting the games, or were you just kind of bookworm with the teacher? Like, who were you during recess in fourth grade?

I was actually I was playing whatever sport there was, having fun running around. Yeah, that was me.

So were you in that now, or is that you do now? Like where you're in the middle of the action and joining, being the team player in whatever context is available to you?

I'm a team player, but I'm not the first to jump in the middle of the action unless I need to.

Okay, okay. Do you know who you were?

Me? I was definitely bossing all the kids around on the playground. I was the leader. So you guys were going to play my game, and you're going to play it the way that I want the game to be played, But I had friends that I was not that annoying. Like that doesn't make you want to play with. I think.

I needs that person.

Right? Every leader needs, you know, every line needs a leader. And I was definitely going to be the line leader.

Are you still the same way now? Yes.

I think I've softened, though. I think I've stopped. I like I think, you know, you mature and you realize it's not your world. You know, like other people have an opinion. Other people have an opinion and their opinion matters just as much as yours does, I think have no way.

Yeah. All right, so you guys meet, you kind of reconnect in adolescence, later adolescence. And is that the beginning of now? Is it from that point on, you were together?

Pretty much. I mean, we got together now, Sean, like I said, was a couple of grades before me. So when he graduated from high school, he went off into the military. I'm a sophomore, you know, and so I didn't we had a couple break ups because I wasn't I was not going to do a long distance relationship at 15 years old. So you know how high school relationships are. You break up, you get back together, you break up. But we got back together for good during my senior year, and, we we knew we wanted to get married, but I had I was very ambitious. I had a whole I mean, I was going to graduate college, you know, it.

Or at high school at 17, graduate college at 20. Like, I had my whole plan, a scholarship to college my whole life was mapped out. And, we got pregnant my first semester of college. So I was 17 years old. And we find out that we're pregnant and so that definitely shifted the whole timeline and everything. And so we got so early, you know, I was 18, he was 21 when we got married. And I think that was probably the beginning of this major detour that our lives took in. Not the greatest of directions.

Okay. And where are you? Are you're currently in Virginia Beach, but at this point, where do you guys lay? Everywhere. Where would you based out of.

I don't know if you're familiar with Murfreesboro in North Carolina. It's a little tiny little town about. Yeah, it's about an hour and a half outside of Virginia Beach, so not super.

Okay, okay. So same general area, North Carolina kind of based. And and then you talking about a major detour, what's the major detour? I mean, you got pregnant or you had a baby, but what are you talking about when you reference that?

Yeah, I mean, I think we just weren't ready, you know, you're not you don't know yourself at 18. You don't know anything about marriage for sure. At 18. And we both had, there were, I think, people on both sides, like we went to a very strict church that was kind of like, if you get pregnant, you have to get married, which I think is terrible advice. But what are we going to do? We're 18, and, you know, we trust these folks that are telling us this. And so, I think getting married so young and not really knowing ourselves, also not having dealt with any of the trauma that we had dealt with as children. So we were broken, very much broken. And and of course, you know, you link two broken people together, you're going to start to have challenges and brokenness right away.

And that's what happened. So, you know, pretty much from the onset of our marriage, we started having all all the issues, like every, every issue that you could imagine was pregnant.

How do you think about that, Sean? Like, do you're nodding your head like, what are you what's your perception or memory of that time?

She's on point? I mean, because like, we had people in our lives and told us that we had to get married. And, you know, one person even told me, if I don't get married this time, I wouldn't be able to see my child. So I was like, okay, then me, I don't I don't really have a choice at this marriage. You know, you have to have because I want to be in my child's life. So definitely wasn't ready at that time, didn't know anything about it, didn't have the real father figure to teach me, you know, talk to me about marriage to my mom, end up getting married when I was, I think 11 and, you know, so it was later on I already had established kind of my life in, you know, I, I didn't even take their last name, you know, because, I mean, I, my stepfather was great, but just, I just didn't at the time because he wasn't there all the way going growing up.

So, I mean, then once, you know, so we got married and not knowing anything, not knowing what to do, only, only thing I ever saw was what my uncles did. You know, my uncles were players. You know, they had multiple girlfriends. Not with this. And so I that's what I thought you're supposed to do, you know. And that's all I saw in the military. So doing that into a marriage and then that of course I would just kind of follow that path and and just wasn't good. And then not knowing much about money, not knowing any of that stuff, it was it was a struggle at first, you know, and and I'm really blessed. So we're still together, you know, 20s at a year, 26.

So yeah, particularly if you didn't start off with a very solid foundation. Are you still in relationship with the church, like not the specific church, but you still have a a like a faith background that is part of your life?

Absolutely. On my teaching pastor at our church that we attend now, and I think for me, even as a little child, I was able because we grew up in a pretty strict, a pretty strict church, and it wasn't abusive or any of that. It was just they they were by the letter. And I think there were some things that even as a child that I discerned that weren't right. So I was able to kind of separate from like what they taught in what I believe. And I think that that protected me somewhat. But but in this situation, obviously with the church being like, you have to get married. Yeah. Like I was. Yeah, like that was the right thing to do. So thankfully I wasn't like burned like I didn't burn me toward God or toward the faith in general. But we definitely kind of left that stream of, of religious teaching, if you will.

Yeah. I just I think about people who have these backgrounds in the church and myself included, and somehow that you get this break or this breach from kind of the church of your origin story, I always say I think I don't know anybody whose faith I genuinely respect, who still goes to the same church. Their parents raise them in. I mean, like people whose faith is that I regard, they have left their origins, their origin church, and they found a new expression, one that is maybe more aligned with their actual, you know, vision of maturity and thought and growth. So sounds like you guys have made that journey at some level.

Yeah. And I mean, I think when I look back at the church that we were raised and like, there's I think the older that I've got and the more I have appreciated the foundation that they laid. But I think it can be very, very hard when like, my mom was great, like my mom taught me how to read the Bible myself. And I think if I didn't have that, I would have easily gotten caught up in somebody else's teaching and philosophy of how my life should be. But as I grew up and needed God more, I started to rely on him more. Not that's not the church per se, but him more. And and that kind of led us to where we are today. And I think that faith is ever evolving. You know, I tell my kids this, we've got four kids, ages 26 to 16 and.

26, and then you got pregnant with a 17.

That's right. Yeah, yeah. So the way that we were kind of raised was like, you're going to believe this because this is what we say. And we've not done that to our kids. We don't force our children to believe what we believe. They all go to church and they all love God. But we've just decided to parent very differently.

Than.

What we were exposed to.

Well, and if you buy the theory right, my little observable theory, just in my own life, in order for our kids to have their own faith, they have to leave ours. Absolutely. Like at some point they'd have to go. Yeah. No I don't know. Mom and Dad if I'm going to kind of do your thing I'm going to go find my own thing. And that's hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, but I yeah, but you know, mine, mine had had enough of my church by the time they were both in middle school. So I'm still waiting for them to figure out what what it is. But aren't we all right? We're all kind of figured out how to make sense of this whole thing.

Yeah. But I will tell you, Zach, our 26 year old, you know, for a while, he was kind of like out there. He's super successful in real estate. He's doing his thing. And he was kind of out there just living his life. You know, he he didn't like. He wouldn't say that he had left the faith totally. But he wasn't going to church. He wasn't there wasn't anything from his life that would have mimicked, you know, the home that he was raising. And just recently, over the past year and a half, he has come. I wouldn't even say back to Faith, I will say that he's had a revival of his own faith. So he goes to a different church.

And like, this is it even a different church than, like, what we grew up in? But the church that he grew up in, to your point, he goes to a different church. Yeah, he's got a whole different faith community. And it's been incredible to watch. And again, it's not we're not like beholden to our church. So it's not like, oh, you have to come to our church. You have to, you know, I'm just excited that he is on this journey for himself. And so it's really encouraging to see that after years of with what looks like, man, I don't know if he's ever going to turn around to see like a change in him. It's been pretty, pretty remarkable.

Yeah. You said you've been together 26 years. Is that the number that we or he's 26. You've been together a little bit longer than that. Perhaps.

Yeah. What's a third?

We started dating in 1996. So it's coming up on 30 years of dating. And then will we will celebrate 27 years of marriage in 2026.

All right. So what's the secret lesson?

What's the secret, Sean?

Just listen to everything you say. No. Really, I think what has worked for us is getting outside of ourselves and also getting to know ourselves. For me, it was getting in therapy and understanding who I am. And not focusing on who Dana was. I was like, who am I? I need to understand who I am first, and once I understand who I am, then I can try to understand who she is. What if I don't even know who I am? How can I know who she is and understand? You know what, mate? If I don't know what makes me to, how do I look? Trying to figure out what makes you tick. So once I get some deep therapy, I understood who I was. I was able to sit back and then you know and understand Dana and talk and have conversations where I couldn't do that for.

So I mean, that really helped me and helped us. And also I'm like is it's not about me. And I really try how can I make her happy if I'm trying to make her happy? I'm not thinking about what's going on with me, you know, not putting myself first or so.

Yeah. I think for me, you know, I don't have any other answer to say other than, like, I feel like God rescued us. Like we did some stuff. Yes, we went to to counseling. We had to, like, lay down pride and selfishness and like, kind of that deep work. But I know for sure we have matching tattoos of Ecclesiastes, the scripture that says that a triple rate at court cannot be easily broken. And I know for sure, like if I was telling someone today, I was like, I just don't know where I would be if if God had not entered in, not only just entered into my marriage, but like I see him as a as a presence, like as a real presence. So through that getting rid of selfishness, which is like, these are the things that like, people don't want to hear.

But it's the truth is that like, we are inherently selfish people and we want what we want. And being married forces you to consider somebody else. And, you know, it's hard. You know, you're like, what's the secret? The secret is staying in there. And of course, I don't ever advocate someone staying in an abusive marriage or anything like that. You know, or habitually unfaithful marriage or, you know, an abandoned nothing, nothing like that. But I think staying in there when it's easier to walk away, we've had many opportunities to walk away, you know, many. And I think there's a little bit of stubbornness. And in both of us that's like, I am not going to I'm not going to give up.

Like, we're going to figure this thing out. And and we're just going to and also because we were both raised by single parents, you know, his mom remarried at 11, and my mom remarried when I was three, but it was just that's a whole nother podcast of that. But right on that. But we didn't want to replicate that. Like it was very important for us. Not only that, we stay married for the kids sake. That's not what we're doing here. But like but that our that our marriage would be a like a template, a blueprint that our kids would genuinely say, like if I get married, which they don't have to get married, that's not the thing. But like if I get married, I would like my marriage to be like my parents. And I think that, like greater vision has like helped us to stay together when things have been really hard.

Man, I feel yeah, I'm with you on that. And you know, this episode will come out, I think, right before Christmas. So maybe there's something serendipitous about the idea of, you know, the role that God plays in the world. You know, who you know, we had a world that the baby Jesus wasn't a part of. And then all of a sudden, here he comes, you know, and then here's a marriage and marriages who are trying to figure out how to make it work. And, you know, I, I know plenty of people who believe that God is central to that. And so people who don't believe in God at all. But you have this notion of God is part of this. How do you feel that or experience that, or name that on just like a daily basis or on a on a regular basis?

If there's a court of three stands like, how do you recognize that third strand in your life on a, on an, on the, on the daily basis? Yeah. It's not even daily. But just like a I don't mean daily. I don't mean like where is God daily for you, but like, how do you how do you name that for yourself in this, in this context that you're describing?

Yeah, that's an excellent question you want to answer.

Or I mean, the things we've been do the way we've where we started to where we are now, we can do that by ourselves. We definitely could. I mean, a kid having a kid where I don't have a steady job. I mean, we're in college going up to the stuff we did just, on and off jobs, you know, and that did grow from that to where we are as nothing. And Dana and I could have did by ourselves. So and we and considering we grew up in the church and grew up in faith, we know where you know God was there with us, you know, and even going back to I mean, I shouldn't be here, but God had a purpose for my life, you know, because my senior year in high school, I do everything away.

You know, I got a bad car accident behind drinking. You know, I had a loss of all, football scholarship. And if you were to start a car, I mean, the, the car I hit was a parked car. The front seat. I mean, the trunk was into the back seat. In the back seat was in the front seat, and a front seat was coming out of the car. You know, I it out a car and walking down the street. And no, by God's grace, nothing came of that. You know, I was able to get off from the case and I just, I just know that's not something I could do on my own, you know, was God had a purpose for my life, and now I'm starting to walk, you know, in that purpose.

And I see why I went to all of these things back then. So I can have a story for somebody else to have. And, you know, even we went through the struggles in our marriage because it's not just for us as for somebody else, it's watching now. We're not really aware, but sometimes watching all our stuff and hopefully that helps somebody else come out, you know, get to the struggle.

So yeah, I think for me, like I that's such a great question. Like how do we see the, the third strand? I you know, I'm a big believer in presence. You know, a lot of people say prayer, but prayer can mean lots of things to lots of different people. And how do you pray and is it like reciting prayers or whatever? So every morning when I wake up, I just sit in the presence of God like it's that simple, you know? In silence. I spend a lot of time in silence, in solitude. First thing in the morning trying to hear, and just really trying to stay connected to to God. And, and again, I know that many there are people all along the spectrum of faith, you know, so I don't want to prescribe like, this is the only way.

But for me, this has worked. It keeps me humble. I pray a lot, obviously. So I'm, I'm very introspective. So let's say, for example, Sean has done something to upset me or I feel taking advantage of whatever. Like it's easy for me to make him an enemy and to be like, you know, but I was I will sit with God and be like, God, what's going on in me? Like what? Yeah, why is that? What's the trigger? Like, what's going on here? And like, really involving him. Not just like saying some like, rote prayer, but like, really inviting him in and also being very aware of my weaknesses. There's a scripture that says that when we are weak, he's strong. And I don't like to be weak. Like that goes against everything in my personality.

But starting in fourth grade.

Right. But it's like when I realize, like, oh, dang. Like we are all broken people and we are working toward wholeness, that we'll spend the rest of our lives doing that. But like, I don't have to be strong all the time. I don't have to be up all the time. I don't have to have the answers all the time. I don't have to be perfect. I'm never going to be those things. So I can just relax in his presence and say, God, show me, help me, help me to be a wife. Like I remember one of the danger, say, all the time, I'm like one of the most dangerous prayers that you can ever pray is teach me how to love unconditionally. Like what I'm like. Don't pray that it lets you know. Thanks. Because yeah, and I've had to learn like.

I'm pretty committed to my conditions aren't like, oh.

My gosh. Yeah. Like it's it's real. But so for me, those were some of the things that have really anchored that third strand and in our. Yeah, in my life.

Well I think and for people who have a god that they can name or a higher power that they can point to, it's it's easy to like it. Maybe it's even comforting to personify this, this thing that's just bigger than us. And I you know, if you're going to make it, you have to believe in something bigger than yourself. You have to be believe in something even bigger than us. And that that this is about something else. A lot of people look at that in their kids, right? It's about legacy, which sounds like you guys were committed to also. Right? Mean repeat this generational trauma that has kind of, represented our story. We're going to try and replace that with something different.

But, yeah, I think that's really essential to be able to identify, locate, invest in something that's just bigger than me, you know, and bigger than us. And if we can call that God, that's that's awesome. I had this, pet pet question that I like to ask people, who have faith or who have Christian faith. Anyways, if you, what do you think is more important, Christmas or Easter?

Oh, that is a good question. I mean, for me, it'd be Easter, but it's like you can't have Easter if you don't have Christmas. Yeah, sure. But I think the resurrection of Jesus, like that is our life story. It's anything in your life that is dead. If you believe in the story of the Gospel of Jesus dying and then being completely like dead, dead like he wasn't like candidate, but for him to rise from that, like, I think for us that's been a guiding light. Like your marriage can be dead. Dead like dead. Yeah. Like our marriage was dead and he's died many deaths. But the story of the resurrection for me, I think is, is more important. I don't know, you might think differently.

You know him? Say, Christmas. I mean.

Tell me about Christmas.

Yeah, because, I mean, the gift was given to us. And so that's why I give all the times on Christmas gifts. Because I was given a gift for Jesus. So he was given a gift to the world.

So yeah. What he's trying to do right now because we have this running like disagreement in our relationship about his excessive need to give gifts, which is so crazy, like, some people are like, are you even upset about that? But I'm very frugal and like, I have a budget in the things. And he just goes crazy every Christmas and it causes issues. And so so he's trying to like spiritual allies.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But we're going to go with that okay Christmas.

I dig it though. It's a healthy debate. Right. Because, Christmas suggests that there is a divine energy, a divine power or a god who was absent, and then all of a sudden said to the world, nope, I'm here. I'm part of this whole scene. Right? And that tip, sorry, that changes everything, right? Like that.

Everything.

No. God. And then God is like, oh, oh, there's a thing, right? Not that there was no God. That guy was plenty of Old Testament present, but, but then that sets up Easter, of course. And I'm in with you. Like, I think peop people who appreciate that a thing can be dead and then can be more powerful or more, you know, more relevant because it's come back is really, really, beautiful thing. And we learn that, you know, we learn that in lots of ways, including the gospel and the resurrection. But, you know, particularly if somebody coming in here, for example, on the heels of an affair and they're like, nope, it's broken. It's like there's no coming back. And then they come back from that. They come back from like there was a no.

And now there's a new yes. That second yes is often way more powerful and secure than the than the one that was informed by, I don't know, your first. Yes. Was informed by your church saying you got to say yes. Now you must say yes. Right. You know, versus you get to say yes knowing what you know, you know, and knowing that you've experienced something like death, you know, that I think that's really powerful. So but I'm actually probably on the pro Christmas side, I think, I think that the that the, that the, the appearance of God in the world, is pretty, pretty spectacular. And it changes the whole thing, right? At least it invites us to believe in something bigger than ourselves. So, if I were flipping a coin or breaking the tie, I guess I land on John.

You know, Christmas. That's fair. It's Christmas time, so we'll go with that.

What do you guys do for Christmas? What? You're. What you're saying. Do you have a you have a special rituals or holidays that you lean into for your family and for your community, and or not holidays or special rituals that you lean into.

Yeah. So since the kids were little, I mean, they're all old and big, like they're big big. They're young adults, you know, but from the time they were little on Christmas morning, we would wake them up. Everyone piles on our bed, and we read the story of Luke two together. And now, even with these old kids, like 26, 23, 18, like they still pile on our bed and wait for us to read that Luke two story. Like, I love it every Christmas day. And so now you know, my kids are they're leaving the house. We only have one at the house now, but they come over early on Christmas and that just means everything to me. I do, the same meal I've been cooking, the same Christmas morning meal. It's like a casserole and cinnamon rolls and smoothies.

I don't know what when that started, but it's been like 15 years. Yeah, yeah, of the same thing. And so I love the Christmas morning. Like I'm such a quality time person. So all of that like time with the kids and sitting around and just being like, we can expect the same thing. We don't travel anywhere for Christmas. We're not going to grandma's house or auntie's like, we we pretty much stay home.

Yeah. And for me and me is because I didn't have that father in my life. It's the time for me just to sit back and just watch everybody enjoy their gifts, you know? I mean, it just makes me feel proud. Like this is what, you know, that's what I miss. But I enjoy seeing my kids being able to open gifts and being able to appreciate stuff and that, you know, is their family time having them there. So it yeah, that's why do you think.

That's about for you. Like what do you know about your your gifts as like your love language. Where does that come from for you or what is that about for you.

For me, I mean, and for my mom, I mean, she is a giver to to the into the team. I mean, she's going to give herself to deaf, you know. And so I've model that growing up and, you know, that's how that's how, I feel like I'm doing something, you know, like if I and is if I see anybody, some somebody struggling on its own, something I just want to help. And if I can help that, I just it just makes me feel like a whole wholesome person, you know?

Dana, you suggested that maybe your love language is quality time. What do you know about where that comes from for you?

Yeah, I mean, same, you know, upbringing. My mom struggled financially my whole life, and so she didn't really have a lot. So she was a schoolteacher, very well educated, but she just just struggled, you know, she was a single mom raising three girls. It was a big value for her to send us to Christian schools. So, like, how do you do that in a teacher salary? So we didn't have a lot. But I didn't require a lot. Like, I don't know, I had this, like, I just understood, like, oh, she's doing her best. And so I just didn't really ask for a lot. So for me, my mom's love language is also quality time. So I loved spending time with my mom. I had a very close relationship with her growing up as all of my friends did.

Like my friends. This is back in the day. We had caller ID and they would call the girls and I would be like, hey! And they'd be like, hey, is your mom? They're not like, what? You know, like my mom. So my mom be cut again. Like is like it goes to how you were raised. She was raised in a highly dysfunctional home where nobody could come to their house because it was so full of abuse. So I think she made kind of one of those internal battles. Like when I have a family, my home is going to be a place where people can gather and people can come. And we always have people in our house, people live with us. We seen such a huge quality time person. And so that's that just kind of became my thing.

So experiences mean more to me than gifts. Memories mean everything to me because I feel like when you die, no one's going to remember the new gadget they got in 2016. They're going to remember the memories that they made with the people they love. So I think that's where my quality time is rooted.

Tell me about your podcast. What is what are you what are you what are you trying to do as you speak your voice into the world? What do you what's your what's your goal?

Yeah. So my podcast is called Rebuilding Us and it's literally our story. Shawn and I talk a lot about how did we rebuild from the ashes, because I think it's one thing for like, we didn't just have one affair, like we were both unfaithful in our marriage, and it was multiple affairs on Sean's part. And and I'm not advocating that people stay in relationships where infidelity is, is is reoccurring. For us, I think, you know, we went through this situation for many years, and if I'm honest, it wasn't because I just wanted to like, stick it out. Like, honestly, there were times that I wanted to divorce and just couldn't afford one, you know? So it's like, okay, I guess we're going to have to figure this out.

We did some in-home separations, lots of therapy. And so my goal through the podcast is really to just to be honest, because I think there's a lot of, especially in a Christian marriage space where there's a lot of like, you know, like just pat answers and very, shallow advice. And people are not really willing to be real. So, like, I share everyone that listens to my pocket, they know like they know my my whole platform is just about authenticity. And, and my goal is to really encourage people to be honest and real about where they are, wherever they are. Because you can't you can't grow if you're not going to first acknowledge, like, this is where I'm really at and so yeah, I do like I said, I do lots of solo, shows, but then I'll have guests come on.

And we talk about like what I feel, what I'm hearing out there. I'm also a marriage coach. So what I'm hearing from couples or even just friends, like, what are the challenges that people are facing? I really try to think about like, where was I especially like, where was I in the middle of our mess? Like, what did I really need to hear? And that's kind of how I patterned the show.

Right on and so on. Are you on the show?

Every so often I make a guest appearance. Yeah. And that's hurting, you know, I'm I like to stay in the background.

So do you have a, this is a just like, a random weird question, but do you have a nickname for Sean that you use on the show? Like, is he like Mister Muffin or something like that?

No, he's just on this shot.

I have a friend who, Who? It's a long story, but because of some ways that things went down in her life, her professional life and personal life, her husband, got the name The Muffin Man. That's where that came from in my own head. But, like, so when she's talking about things publicly, she's like, yeah. And then the Muffin Man came through and did it as, and then, as a muffin man. What he thought and did it. And so it just a with I'm like, I know that there are people who have these characters in their podcast world or in their public life, and they're they always have these little Nate, I don't know, nicknames or whatever, but that's brilliant.

I didn't think about that. That's that's their.

Idea. And then you call my wife is Rebecca and she's this Rebecca. Yeah. Rebecca. Rebecca. Totally 100%. Yeah. So. And, my my commitment to her is that she's always the hero of my stories. Like, I never tell a story about Rebecca where she is somehow the villain. Even though often enough, she is the villain for sure, you know? But, that's don't lesson she.

Sean is. Everybody knows Sean is the bad guy.

That's not true. It is not true at all. If you listen like I feel like I'm balanced, I do throw myself under the bus a lot. Yeah. And I'm just very, Listen, I throw myself under the bus. I'll. I throw him under the bus with me. But I do throw myself.

Do you listen to the podcast, Sean? Do you listen to it?

Do you listen to the podcast?

Sean? Not every single one. Yeah, because a bus has been rolled over me so many times, and.

Rebecca doesn't listen to it either, so it's okay. You're in good company, you guys.

Oh, don't give him any fodder. Don't get.

It. Look at me. I'm like, I'm voting for him on the Christmas thing. And I'm telling him he doesn't have to listen to the podcast. I have really loved talking to you guys. What is the best way for people to learn more about you or you both? Or if they're in Virginia Beach, do they come to your church? Like, what's the tell me how to point people in your direction?

Yeah, I mean, I'm very active online. So Dana Shay, that's Deanna A.com. If people go to Danish A.com, they can find on my socials my where I'm speaking books, all the things like that's just kind of the central hub for everything. And Sean is laced throughout, but he's very much like you said, he he thrives in the background. People are always like, how come he's not like. And I'm like, because that's just not his personality.

Yeah, yeah.

Right on here. Find me fighting a fire somewhere in Chesapeake. I'm a firefighter, so, yeah.

My brother is, is a lieutenant in, I think in Henrico.

Really?

Yeah. So he. I think that's where he is now. He's but he's a he's in Richmond. Mechanicsville kind of area, but I think he's I think he's in the Henrico Fire Department. So, and he just recently became a lieutenant, so, yeah, he was a school teacher for a real long time and then decided he was done. He didn't want to teach history, went back and became a firefighter. Yeah.

That was awesome.

It is awesome. I'm real proud of him. So, listen, merry Christmas, happy New Year. Thank you so much for coming out. Merry syrupy radio. And, wish you and yours the very best as we head into whatever's next.

Thanks. I say Merry Christmas.

Happy new year.