When Desire Changes the Marriage with Courtney and Nathan Boyer

Courtney. Nate Boyer, thanks for coming on the show. How are you this morning? What time? Where are you? What are you doing? Where do you live?

Oh, we are in Germany. So it is you. But I'm here actually. Yeah.

Why are you in Germany?

We're German, I'm skinny. No, no.

I am stationed in the military, so I'm in the army. Okay. And there's a base over here. Kind of in south west Germany. And so we're here. That's where we live now. We've been here six and half years, so, Yeah. So we're not quite German, but we've been here a while, so.

I, Okay, I have this, a couple years ago, Laura, who was my co-host, and I, we went to Germany. We flew into Frankfurt.

Yeah. Okay.

We we went to, a little town outside of Kaiserslautern.

Okay. So. That's right.

That's where we live is.

Okay. And so we taught at that base, a base that was right near there. Is that the base that you're on?

Yeah, there's Rammstein.

We weren't on Rammstein. We were on a smaller base.

Too, like Rob, Rob.

Kleberg.

Panzer maybe, I don't know. We were, we were. We stayed in this little, like, hotel right outside of Kaiserslautern. And then it was maybe a 20 minute drive from, from there, but, Okay. Yeah, I was sad because Kaiserslautern, has a a football club.

Yeah, I see, and.

They have the and they have the best. What is it called FC car.

Yeah.

So it's FC okay. But in Germany.

Right. Right right. Yeah. So it's a big big giant FK. Yeah. That looks like you know the word. Yeah. And yeah I was bummed because I couldn't, I didn't get there in time to buy a T shirt. I wanted to buy one and, you know, have my souvenir from. Yeah, Germany, but I, they totally didn't do it, so. Okay. So you been in Germany? Let's just say six years.

Yeah. A little over six years. Yeah.

And then how long have you been married? How long you been together?

We've been married, in January, of 26. It will be 21 years. Yeah, 21 years. And then we've been together. That's a lot of years longer than that. So 23 ish years. Yeah.

Cool. Cool, cool. Do you have children?

Three.

Yeah. Who are they?

They are a two older, 16 year old girl and a 14 year old girl. And then we have a 12 year old boy as well. Okay. Yeah.

And how do they like being, expats or what do you call, what do you call it?

I mean, the Germans calls outlanders, which is outsiders, but we have long enough, that, you know, we consider ourselves, like, partially German. All three of our kids go to German school, though, so they're fluent in German and do German things. Now, all the Germans, that's just they sort of. We don't, you know, that's just who they are now. So I'm.

21 years. So, I have this little theory about, relationships that they long term committed relationships have a lifespan of about three years. So this is all like, anthropology, geological, science, relational science. But it's like. So that means you guys are seven, you have seven cycles. You've got you've got, you know, do you how do would you define them. Do you have you don't have to go through all seven. But do you have distinct cycles that you would be able to point out and go, oh, this one, this one or this one, anything that you might.

That's all right. What do you think?

I mean, yeah, we have distinct cycles, that's for sure.

So I've been trying to find a new way to ask this question, because I think a lot of people don't track or pay attention to kind of the before and afters, the ups and downs, the phases that they go through that, you know, a lot of us particularly and particularly in the States right now, the news cycle is 30s long. So everything is now, now, now, now, now until you start to add perspective. And when people have been together for real long time, you know, it begs the question of how do you do it? You know, and that typically involves some phases. I chose three years, but maybe you have other phases that you're aware of. I mean, how to do it.

Yeah. I mean, when I, when I was listening to talk about that, I mean, our phases are more, I think related to our education and then moving in the military. So, when we first got married, we were seniors in college, and then we moved to Indiana for graduate school. And then ultimately I got into medical school there. So we did five years in Indianapolis. And then after that, it's been three year cycles with the military. So, we did,

Three years in Washington, Washington.

State, three years in Texas, three years in North Carolina. And then it would have been, you know, three years in Germany, but I've extended twice. And so it's ultimately been a little over six years now. So that's kind of how our phase is kind of broken. And it's more like where we've lived and what we've been doing rather than some other kind of, I guess, emotional thing or other thing that's happened with that. So.

Right. Do you have, like definite highlights or, sounds like Germany. You've extended twice. Why did you do that? Why didn't you take the new one?

I think for us it just works really well for us. So we got our kids into German school when we first got here, and so that was great. We wanted to stay here as long as we could. Honestly, we don't have any specific place back in the States, so we really wanted to get back to or a base to get back to or anything like that. And so it was working for us here. We like Germany, we like being in Europe, like experiencing sort of new and different things. So it's kept us here and we I've been fortunate to be able to extend a couple times. And Courtney's business is online and virtual, and she does a lot of our work. We are remote and so she doesn't need a physical space to do it.

And so we've kind of just picked this is our spot for now. And it's worked for us. I mean, for the military, you kind of have to you know, you do. So move. And you know, it's ultimately we're probably gonna have to move again. And it's just sort of you kind of find the family where you're at and, you make your home where you're at because it's going to change. And it's three years in that or what you do, honestly. So, yeah, and I still have another six ish or so years in the military, so that's just kind of how we we've done it so far.

And now are you in medicine is that.

Yeah. It's I'm a physician. Yeah.

Okay. And this idea of you make home where you are. Do you have a philosophy about that? How do you make home?

I think for me, home is where the people that you love are. So it's not about a physical space for me. It's about being surrounded by people that give me that feeling of safety and comfort and, connection.

Yeah. Right. And then you're. So you're a physician in the military, according to you, you're working in relationship.

Yeah. So I.

Man. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm, like, clinically trained mental health and sex therapist. And I switched over to relationship coaching. And I'm a, I'm an author.

Yeah. So what do you like? What's your what's your thesis? When you think about how relationships work, what is the what's the secret?

Well, that's a tough question. I think that we seek relationships, we attract people for an ultimate lesson. That is my kind of philosophy.

Do we know what the lesson is? Do?

No. We don't. Anything that it's part of. It's like, getting a present and then, you know, those, like, Russian nesting dolls, like, some of them are like, read, like you keep going and you keep going until you can finally figure it out, or you feel safe enough for your nervous system is regulated enough. And other times it's like right away and you're like, oh, I get it. This is what I need to learn here. And so a lot of times we are in these relationships to help us heal or to help us learn something, and a lot of us don't learn them. And so we keep attracting those same relationships, or we find ourselves stuck in these same cycles.

Right. So is that been true for you guys that you find yourselves stuck in the same cycles?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What what do you know about those.

Oh that you start that I can.

I would say the cycle for me was I grew up very religiously and so it was support your husband. Your dreams get pushed to the side. Be the superstar mom superstar wife. And then that will fulfill you. And that should be enough for you. And so that cycle for me was like constantly chasing the next milestone for my kids, a milestone for Nate, always like upping and like suppressing my needs and desires. Yeah. And then I'd get angry, sorry. And then I'd get angry and frustrated and resentful and then push it back down because he would, well, get upset that I was pushing back and he didn't like that. And so then I would retreat and okay, acquiesce and then continue, you know, over.

Start all over.

Yeah. I think for me, it was, you know, because when you're in the military and you're in medicine and primarily in medicine, there's always kind of a next thing. You always have to be continue to grow and achieve and do better and like succeed and grow in what you were doing. So you first you're an intern, then you're a resident, then you're for me, I did it fellowships, I did extra training. So then you're a fellow, then you're a staff physician and you're the leader of the clinic.

Then if you take.

Boring, you have to take all these, like, tests, and you have to do really well, or you can't get to the place of the job you want, and then you become, and you're supposed to be the chief of medicine, and then you're supposed to run the clinic or the hospital. And then there's all these like, steps. So it's almost never ending. It's like there's even if you're doing great and you're in this sort of like what most people consider like an amazing position. It's never quite good enough. And so you're always kind of trying for the next thing and not realizing that either when you've achieved what you set out to do. And so it's okay to just be happy in the moment, or to always have this comparison mindset where it's just never enough, it's never good enough.

It's always this revolving door of like having to succeed and do better and be the best and things like that, while life passes you by and you know what your family grows up around you. Your kids grow up, your wife grows up like you changes and you don't realize it. Sometimes you that you later. So you're sort of stuck in what you're doing and and you know, you have to shake the world up a little bit to get out of that kind of root of that cycle.

So I don't think I've ever heard anybody say it like that before, but I'm lingering on this thing that you said, which is this idea that maybe you've actually achieved what you set out to do, and it's okay just to be happy.

That is, I think for me, that was a huge, awakening. And I think that's I think we've talked about this where in a lot of professions or like high achieving professions, you set out to be the lawyer, the doctor, the engineer, the owner of the whatever business, and you get there and then all of a sudden you don't know what to do with yourself because you've spent 15, 20 years going after this thing and sort of like hyperdrive with your nervous system and like, always pushing and and then all of a sudden you get there and sort of the either there's no more ceiling to reach up to or you just kind of like

flat because all of a sudden, all that energy, all that effort, all the momentum just sort of stops because you're there. And then a lot of people, at least in my profession, I feel like, don't know what to do with themselves. They're sort of like, well, what do I do now? I've spent 20 years trying to get to this goal. All of a sudden I'm there and I realize that in my early to mid 40s now, and I have another 30 years to do what I and it's terrifying. I think on sure, it can be so

Yeah, I've got a lot of people come in. It's interesting that you talk about even early to mid 40s, but like these kind of post parenting couples who come in and they're, they're asking, I don't know what. Now what do we do. You know, the same thing do you just said and I think it's the right question, but somehow I want to figure out how to get people to ask, okay. Like more like this. Okay. Well now what do we do? Yeah. You know, what's what's the what can we do now that we have this opportunity and this freedom and this, you know, perspective even. So how are you guys taking advantage of that? Because I know that you're you have, there's a plot twist coming up here real soon. Right?

There is. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, trust. Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. Sorry.

Well, I mean, we might as well cut to the chase. I mean, you've, you've you've looked at your the situation, you followed your own path and you decided to make some choices about how to navigate this next, next phase. Is is it fair to call it the next phase or the current phase, like.

Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. And for us, it was about three years ago.

It was. Yeah.

Okay.

Well yeah I'm fine. Yeah.

Yeah okay. All right. So tell me a story.

So almost four years ago, on at our anniversary dinner, I asked Nate for an open marriage, and it did not go well. He was not okay. I'm not on board with that. And then we spent the next six months having, discussions and researching and arguing and discussing, and then finally agreed that he would stay monogamous and I would be non-monogamous.

Okay, so I want to go back, though, to what you say for months or months ago, like like you had four years for us. Yeah. No, I know it was four years ago, but then you asked him and then you spent the next X number six, six months. Six. Okay. So so I want to go back six months to that's anniversary dinner. Recognizing what you already said about you kind of came up in this religious community. You had you had bought into the sort of identity rhetoric around what a wife was supposed to be and how this did how did you how did you arrive at this invitation, this, this ask this, this awareness that you wanted something other and it was it was to open this thing up. Like, how did you get there?

Yeah. So being I was exposed to nontraditional relationships in graduate school, like 15 years before that. So I was familiar with non-monogamy, polyamory, but was never drawn to it because of my religion and my upbringing and stuff. It really was like, I'm going to be an all star mom, and I do all the things. And, you know, when you're married to somebody, I would joke and say, oh, Nate's married to medicine and I'm his mistress. And that was really how our marriage was, like, he 100% put all of his time energy efforts. And I was like, I got the breadcrumbs. And I was fine with that because I thought, that's you just fine. That's fine. You just do it and you smile and you're happy and all the things. Until I just was dying inside and just felt so, like, invisible and like, he just wasn't able to meet my emotional or sexual needs.

And so I said to myself, okay, how can I keep my family together? And I was tired of asking him to go to therapy. I was tired of seeing the books on the shelf that I had bought for him, and he just wasn't motivated. He was like, no, I don't want to change. Like I don't see the problem. And I said, okay, until I finally couldn't say okay anymore and said, oh, this is the solution. Nothing has to change between us. You know, you're in bed by nine most nights anyways, and so I'll go get my needs met and have a date or whatever, and then come back and it'll be fine. And so in my mind, that's how I it as a solution to our crumbling relationship.

So Nate you're sitting there, what anniversary is it. 20th.

Like 18th anniversary.

Yeah. So you're sitting there on your 17th anniversary and you get this question, what goes through your head like what happened.

Yeah. I mean the first thing she asked me was do you want to have a threesome? Yeah.

That was was the.

First question, okay. To sort of like, I guess break the ice. I don't know where to like.

Nate. Do you also have this, like, religious background? Do you have the same origin story or do you coming out of the same kind of faith, posture or. No, I have.

A Christian background. I would say, nowhere near strong like Courtney was in Christian school. Yeah, through high school, through college. Went to Presbyterian College together, obviously. And it wasn't like you have to sign a contract or anything like that, but it was it was religious in general. And so I was sort of religious and Christian would be sort of my denomination. But it was nowhere near as strict. It was nothing like that. And I had fairly, I guess, sort of politically kind of middle ground parents and grew up kind of in this take care of others and kind of do unto others as you wanted to yourself and more of kind of the golden rule, like a moral, like a moral sort of foundation rather than like a strictly fundamental or a religious background. So not the same, not the same. So.

Okay. So you're sitting there and she says, she says you want to have a threesome and yeah. Did you want to have a seizure. Like what. You.

No, no I don't, I, I mean I didn't either. Yeah. Okay. Yeah I, I, I like you know it's since then we've examined this but I am just monogamous. It's like that's who I am and what I am. And Courtney and we've had opportunities to to do things together or to go to clubs or swing parties since that's you know, time. And I just have no desire. It's not something. Yeah, desire. Something that excites me. So for me, ultimately the answer was no. I didn't want to have a threesome.

And the only answer was no.

The answer? I was fired up, to say the least. And because for me, as Courtney had said, like I thought everything was great or, like, fun, you know, like I.

Was working for.

You. It was working for me. I was 100% in my favor working for me. So why change? Yeah. If it's working. Yeah.

Yeah. So I this is interesting. I have this, story that I tell about my love of dogs, which does not exist. I just don't I don't have any affinity for dogs in any way. And it's not I'm not anti dog, but I don't have the gene. Like, I just don't have the dog gene. Yeah. When you talk about, monogamy, does it feel like it's just the gene? It's just the gene that I have. It is the I don't have the I don't have the exploratory gene or the sexually ambiguous gene or the polyamory. Is that the way you think of it, or do you feel like it's closer to a choice that you have? You've been conditioned to live into?

Oh, that's a great question for me. I feel like it's more closer to the gene thing or it's just, yeah.

Who I, I sounds like I.

Just feel like it's who I am. You know, we've talked about it and even the idea of just, like dating a couple or going out with another couple just in no way does anything like it's just sort of like flat or even, like, somewhat uncomfortable a little bit, you know, not the one where it's like really uncomfortable just for where, like it's just me or blah, or like, it doesn't mean anything for me. And so, yeah, I just that's who I am. I think that's who I am, sort of at my core, rather than some sort of social conditioning or cultural conditioning or anything. So yeah.

What do you think, Courtney? Do you have different genes or like, what is it a different story?

I think I think so, like for me, I think some people are born like monogamous. Some people are born polyamorous, some people choose the lifestyle. They're like, oh, I personally drawn to this or that. Looking back now, I see pops of polyamory in like that desire and in my life, but it was so repressed that it was not possible to to explore or tap into.

Yeah.

Okay. Let me tell you, a living polyamorous lead versus especially when you're public, it is a hell of a lot easier to live monogamous than it is to live well, humorously.

What do you mean?

A lot of work, will get a lot of hate. This is not a celebrated, lifestyle. Whether it's, you know, people don't get it. I get called horrific things daily, that I'm a terrible mom, a terrible wife. I'm a whore. I mean, those are the things that I get. Yeah, it's hard for. Especially where we live because we live in the middle of nowhere. Germany. It's hard for people to understand the concept of it, like. But you're married like they can understand me wanting sex only, but they're like. But why you? Why would you love someone you can't love more than one person? Like, that's ridiculous. Like, why would you think that in, you know, I get called an abuser that I'm abusing and manipulating, forcing him to stay.

And so it's it's it's hard. It is not fun. I all of them and I've dated have, like, hated me from their life because they don't want people to know that they're dating a married woman. So yeah, for in my experience, it's it's hard.

You said they've hidden you from their life. Laffey. Did. Or did you say wife?

No, no. No life. The life. No no no no no, I don't date cheaters. No no.

No no.

They're, Yeah, man. I'm number one. I'm really sorry that that's your experience. Like, I, I don't I think it's a, shame that we live in a world where we can somehow let people know what we think, even if it's hateful, like, I don't I don't I don't understand how that is. Okay. So I'm really sorry that that's your experience. And how how do you make peace with it then, you know, how do you what what what have you like, help us kind of defend, not defend, but understand the position that you can, in fact, love more than one person, that that's novel for people. How does that work?

I think how do I how do I make peace with it? How do you think I make peace with it?

I mean, well.

What I mean, very specifically, I would say, how do you explain it to your kids? I mean that that's how you make peace with it.

Yeah. So for us, we when I like our oldest, thought I was having an affair. And so she confronted me because the first year we kept it secret from most people. Like I was so ashamed. So ashamed, and had. No. Because when I looked online, people didn't look like me who were polyamorous. They looked like tattooed and pierced in Berlin or Portland, tatted up like 14 people in their molecule. And that is totally great. Like there's amazing people that are polyamorous and live like that. But that's not me. Like, I look like a soccer mom, you know? Like, I'm just like, you're. I'm overeducated and suburban. I bake my own bread, you know, and, it was hard. So because I didn't see myself reflected and because Nate was monogamous, which was another like, oh, now I don't even fit into the polyamorous community because I'm not like, you know, everybody else.

I'm just I mean, I'm an even weirder weirdo. So I was shrouded in shame. And and when my daughter confronted me after a year, that's when we finally just said, okay, we have to tell the kids and just explain it, that some people, you know, how they're born gay or they're born, you know, trans, you know, they there are some people who have the capacity to love more than one person, and they feel really good and whole and better when they have the ability to love more than one person romantically. And that's me.

Yeah, I love that. I'm sort of envious of it. Like, I, I, I probably have the monogamy gene mostly. I don't want the I don't even want any more work. I don't I don't.

Know if he sees how much work it is.

Like like God.

It's funny because people look at me and they're like, oh my gosh, you must have it's so easy. Like, you just must be able to get whatever guy you want. And I'm like, no, no. And Nate's like, if you have a hard time. I couldn't even imagine how hard of a time I would have as a dude. Like, yeah, no, absolutely not.

Too much work. Too much work.

Yeah. Sorry. I was in the middle of saying I'm sort of envious of the capacity for love because it it also represents a capacity for, what would you call it? Like? Well, it's love, right? An expansiveness of your ability to actually care for and empathize with and show compassion. And that doesn't even get to begin talking about becoming sexually available or intimate, you know? So again, I guess I wonder, like, how did you or how did the two of you learn to, like, settle into this part of your identity? Certainly you had ups and downs in that process, but what what are the takeaways that you are now trying to, you know, send into the turned into the world?

I mean, I can start so, I think for us, I was obviously the more resistant one in the change in the relationship, you know, completely resistant to the change, you know, you know, ultimately, like, not now, but and so I think that for us, what helped was Courtney was very patient. So she I think had I said, great, you're polyamorous. Have fun. She would have you know, probably I mean, again, work this over shame and guilt and things like that. Who would have probably started dating, you know, sooner rather than six months after we first discussing. So it was more like her giving me the opportunity to process it and understand it. But also, you know, to be honest, the opportunity to sort of like walk away as well. And so to not be.

From the marriage.

From the marriage. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was all part of that. It was all I mean, we were we ultimately got into marriage counseling, into some other things in order to individually on ourselves. But it was an opportunity where if this wasn't going to work. So before she started dating anyone, there was the opportunity to, like, walk away. And even now I, you know, I have that that option. But and so we we talked we both we worked on both our own relationship, but also gave me time to kind of figure out whether this is something I could be part of and to understand it and then sort of move into dating, which she again also did very slowly and very respectfully.

And it took a lot of her reassuring me, you know, daily or more than once a day or whatever it was. But she still love me and wanted to be part of this relationship. While also being able to, again, like you said, be expansive and have other relationships or other loves or whatever it is. But at the core and sort of the foundation of her life was just still us, me and our family. And that was what I think ultimately, like, allowed me to be, you know, in a position where I could say, okay, let's try this, this try you dating and then kind of see how it goes. Because she gave me so much support and sort of love and patience to be able to figure it out on my own and never force me to do anything or choose to do something I didn't want to or was uncomfortable with.

And so that's kind of, I think how we started. So I think that was that's what allowed me to sort of at the beginning to be like, okay, let's give this a try. So yeah.

And I did. I told them, I said, hey, I get if you don't want to be married to a polyamorous person like I, I would not fault you for that. If, if you, if, if we need to to solve this I understand. And he said yeah. No, let's let's try to work it out.

But you are clear that you were polyamorous and that was going to be the thing that you did or, or rather, that you were going to you were going to expand beyond the relationship. And if that meant the end of the relationship, that was like, well, you were willing to have that consequence versus going back into the, repression. And I don't know if that's the right word, but yeah, going back into like just sort of the singularity of the monogamy that was you were like, I'm retired from monogamy.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes when we would argue, I would threaten to be like, fine, you want a monogamous wife? Why? Why delete the happened, you know, whatever. And, and I would like a light would, like, shut off in me. And I think that he would see that and be like, I don't I don't want a shell of you just because. Great, you're here and you're not dating anybody else. But like that, he could see the the stark difference between me pre and post, you know poly. Yeah.

Yeah yeah. So do they like like do you just go on dates or do you like have a boyfriend for like a season or do you have like how does that even how do you how does it work.

That's a great question. So I don't I'm not dating anybody know exactly. If you know, if anybody

I am I do know some people, but.

Yeah. That would be interested in dating a married mom of three. That would be wonderful.

Yeah. Don't I? Honestly, I could go on a I could go on a whole thing right now, but I'm.

Yeah. It's so this is something we've been discussing. So for the first like three years, would you say that, like, the goal was I just wanted one other partner besides my husband. Like it was. I want to like a a long term boyfriend. And I had that, couple of, couple of times, not more than a few months, I think. Four months was my my longest relationship. So. And it's because it's, again, hard to get people. Yeah. I've never dated a polyamorous man before because they are hard to find here. And so the monogamous men think that they can date a poly woman, and then they fall in love, and then they're like, oh, shit. Like, oh, sorry. What.

About your husband?

Yeah. Or they're like, well, I can't be monogamous. Like, what am I? It's like they don't it doesn't compute in their brain, but they couldn't figure that out before we started dating. So, yeah, I mean, I've been on several one, maybe two second dates, a couple of it's this year for the most part. But no, I haven't had a like I'd been in a relationship this year. Yeah. I also kind of did take a step back from dating to work on my book and to figure out why. I kept repeating a lot of the patterns date like attracting emotionally unavailable men who don't want to commit. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's intriguing too. This idea that, like, you're polyamorous, but you, like, not practicing. Maybe. Maybe you're practicing, but you're you you have the freedom to date and the the capacity, but you're not actually doing it. Does that soothe or satiate the the the like the the impulse, the desire, the the I don't know.

I don't think so. I mean, to be honest, like she. Yeah. I mean she is so much better when she's dating or in a good, you know, place that she's dating. So her I mean just everything about her is like elevated.

So when I have another.

Person which does have a partner, it's her. Just her. How in loving she is and how attentive and emotional and fulfilled and she's, you know, more, I guess, like sexual. I mean, just all the things about her are included and I would say improved. Yeah, maybe not quite the right word, but elevated for sure when she's dating somebody. And so she has done a few second dates and you know, when she's or she's talking to somebody and it's kind of going well, like she's doing better. But I would say there's been some lulls. Again, some of it was just being busy with other outside factors. But she is better when she is at least talking with people or dating people. I would say so, yes.

Yeah.

Are you guys having more sex?

100%, yeah yeah yeah.

And it's better.

Insane. Yeah yeah yeah.

Wow. Okay, a lot more.

How do you connect those dots for me? Like, that would seem like it. Like, on balance.

Intuitive.

If you're outsourcing it, why do you why is it how does it come back in. Like how does it how does that work?

I would say the erotic energy that I get, it's like palpable.

Yeah.

So it's like overflows and knowing that like, my husband trusts me and loves me enough to be like, I trust you to go and do what you need to do is one of the hottest. So like, it's just so erotic and arousing to me, so that when I come back, I'm so charged and so excited and so like. And I love him more like it is. It's really weird to explain. And polyamorous people get it. But it's. Yeah. And it's fine because people are like, oh, your husband must be a terrible lover. You must never have it. You're denying him. And I was like, oh, sweetie, if you only know. It's like we have.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, it's one of those sort of hidden benefits. I mean, I understand that a lot of people have already become clear about what they think before they even investigate a thing. And so, one of the things that's been really interesting for me in the last couple of years is just, you know, I live in Seattle.

So the idea that, oh, I mean, polyamorous. Yeah, polyamory is like, it's it's every third couple. I mean, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's not every third couple. But it's not a shocking thing. Yeah. In in the region anyway. And so just to have that literally become, apparent and become real, over the course of my career here in town has been really eye opening because people, you know, again, they have to challenge these original rules that they, they created, which were made up by somebody, you know, their, their god or their church or their parents or their neighborhood or whatever. And now, even just the opportunity to think, well, wonder if that's not the thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

I don't think I knew that you're from here.

I'm from. So I grew up in Maple Valley. Okay. My parents, lived in Kent. I went to school in Auburn.

Yeah, well, if you're back in town, I hook you up. I got a guy who's, this is one of my best friends, and he's doing the whole thing. And I. Every time I sit down with him, I'm like, man, it sounds like so much work. Like I'm not. You just can't.

You know, it is. And people ask me, they're like, is the juice worth the squeeze? And that's something I've been struggling with, I think like on our social media, because I again, I get so much hate from there. And sometimes I'm like, this is not worth it. Like I'm not even not even going on dates because people are like, oh, you're banging a different guy every weekend. You're such a slut. And I'm like, yeah, I've literally gotten coffee with one guy in like two months, you know, like like, come on people.

Well, and you know, the more I, the more I observe that culture, the more I'm like, what? What happened to you? Like, why do you. Yeah. Why is that how you use your time? Like making other people feel sad on the internet? That's such a weird, such a weird hobby. But, well, that's. Well, I'm sure we have plenty to learn. I'm sure the world has plenty to learn from folks like you that are just thinking outside of the, the normal paradigm that they were handed down or that they inherited. Tell me a little bit about your book and how we can, if you're interested in learning more about you and your journey. What what what what are we looking for?

Yeah. So it was Nate was actually the one who encouraged me to write it. He was, you know, I'd come back from some of these dates, and he was like, you should write that down. Like, you should, like, really chronicle this, this expansion, this growth, this evolution. And so I, I did and it was really traumatic to do, but it's basically my journey from charity culture to polyamory. But it's so much more than just it's it's not a guide on how to open your marriage. It's really, a revelation and an exploration of what it means to ask, is this all there is? And to question what the world has told us about what being a mom and a wife and a woman, what we're allowed to want, and then grappling with this idea of desire and identity. And so, yeah, it's it's I'm really, really proud of it. And it, is available for preorder now and then releases in February.

So very would date 17th, very 17th. Okay. So you're it's a like a Valentine's Day book if you want to.

Yeah exactly. And it is it's really about me coming home to myself and freeing myself from societal expectations and religious dogma and all the things.

Yeah. Nate, what do you think? What do you have? What what words of wisdom do you have for folks that are skeptical or who are not into it? Or like they're they're they're prone to dismiss, the two of you or me or this episode just because of the title. Like, what do you what what do you have to say to those folks?

Yeah. I mean, I would say in general. Well, I'll start with saying all the mean comments that Courtney gets. I get a lot of the opposite.

They're like, he's the hero.

You know, buddy, oh, you're that you're either like the greatest or like, I feel so sorry for you. Like, yes, it's a, you know, you're either like a great husband and you support your wife or like, you know, do you want us to save you blink twice, like, you know, kind of stuff. So, okay, so let's just I'll just leave that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm trying to. Yeah. What I would say is, you know, I think that through this, I mean, I personally have grown, you know, just to understand, like, not everybody has a monogamous, monogamous relationship. And so but really, I think the key is that, you know, and I think Courtney puts us in some of her comments and posts that a couple of things. So one, like, we are free to live the lives we want, you know, and that all of us, some people, it's harder than others. And I understand that. But, you know, we only get a short amount of, you know, life on this earth. And I see this and metastasis and, you know, other places that we should sort of limit how we want and be who we are.

And I think that we should also is sort of talked about like not spend our time putting other people down and what they do, you know, like let them be who they are. And we shouldn't be the reason that someone is afraid to be who they are. Like, who is afraid to be open and honest and show the world who they are. And we shouldn't limit them or lower them, or try to fit them into some box that we think is best for them, you know? And so just be open to the possibility that there are other forms of relationships and they can work and be successful. And that also just let people be who they're going to be. Who cares? Like just do your own thing and we'll do our own thing and we won't hurt you and you won't bother us and go from there. So yeah.

Right. Well, listen, what's the name of your book opened? Right. Okay. Simple enough. Kind of, cool. Opened, releases on February 17th. We will definitely make sure that people put their hands on it if they're interested in learning more about, how do you do? You have a name for it? It's, you're the poly mono couple or something?

Monopoly couple?

Yeah, the monopoly couple on Instagram and all the socials. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Well, anything else you want to let us know or, before we for we right off into the sunset and.

At.

Sunset in where you're at. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I would love to hear any words of wisdom that you have for us. And.

Yeah, man, I, I don't know when I, when when I asked you a little bit earlier, what's the secret? What do you tell people? I think I've figured out what it is, and, it is two things. The secret to happy relationship is you got to be a grown up. You got to climb into your skin and be the person that you, sort of were, created to be as an adult. Right? So everything that we've learned is setting us up for being a grown up because, you know, we live more of our lives in adulthood than we don't. So you got to actually do that work of being an actual grown up. Then I've got all kinds of opinions about that, and it sounds like you both are in tune enough with your own story to appreciate what that means for each of you.

Maybe that's ongoing work, but then from that position. The second thing is do more things that your partner likes and fewer things that your partner doesn't like. I think that's the whole secret. So and again, it sounds like you're leaning into that, with real thoughtfulness. I love the part of your story that includes, you know, I asked for this thing, and then we talked about it for six months. I think people have been trained, whether it's the news cycle or just watching, you know, couples on television solve problems in 22 or 48 minutes. Yeah. You know, they were trained to kind of think that when I start a thing that's going to be over by the time we finish this dinner, and that is the way to set it up for failure.

I mean, that is an expectation that will that will bury you. So, I often talk to my clients when they come about about how therapy ought to be like starting a, like an 18 month long conversation. You know, and so you had a six month long conversation that ended in, compromise or a negotiation or a conclusion anyway, that, You'll probably renegotiate again and again, you know, and I think that as adults, if you do that as adults, you'll be okay. And if you do it as you know, children and traumatized human beings and, it'll be harder. So I don't know if that quite counts as wisdom for you. It's been fun to watch the two of you actually, like, work it out a little bit here. So I'm grateful for grateful for your story and grateful to share it with the world. And I hope that, you know, I hope you let me know if you're in Seattle because.

Yeah, that's right. That lives there. So for sure, I think that if that connection. So definitely we'll reach out.

Yeah. Right. I, well, Cool. Opens February 17th. Thanks so much for coming on. And, thanks. I'll talk to you again. Yeah.

Thank you. Bye.