They Fell in Love Passing Notes in Med School. Thirty Years Later, They're Still Learning Each Other w/Alexandra and Rod Stockwell

How you doing? You're in, um, San Francisco Bay Area. Yeah.

Correct. Yes.

Have you been, uh, sucked into the whole World Cup drama? Are you going over to Santa Clara to see games or are you staying steering clear?

Steering clear.

Right.

Entirely. My biggest interaction with the World Cup was driving across the George Washington Bridge 2 weeks ago with warnings about the delays that would be occurring because of the World Cup.

Right on.

And did you experience delays?

Hard to know, 'cause I haven't driven in that area in a long time.

So, so all the same to you.

Terrible traffic, but weather was extra terrible.

I don't know.

Right on.

Um, sort of, yeah. I mean, yes, of course. But also right now Seattle is like the, the, like the heartbeat of the World Cup because the team, the men are playing here on Monday. And, uh, so tons and tons of energy around all of that downtown and whatnot. So, but I guess they were just there. They played the last game, I think was in that Santa Clara stadium. So Levi's Stadium, maybe. Anyway, thanks for bearing with me and for like handling my technological issues and whatnot. Last week we tried to get together and my whole internet crapped out. I lost 3 interviews that day because I couldn't figure out how to use the internet. So you were kind enough to take care of me emotionally when I was getting ready to throw my computer through the window. And so I'm glad we were able to make it work.

You got to be able to switch gears.

Okay, tell me about that. Do you have a philosophy about marriage that we can dive into already?

Well, do you want to say anything? I've been so chatty, and then I will keep going.

You're doing great.

Oh, thanks, Rod. Well, tell me about you guys. What's your story? Tell me how you show up in your day-to-day life as a married couple.

Well, I'm going to start with our story, which is that we met in 1993, both first-year medical students, and a great deal of our relationship grew through passing notes back and forth while sitting in lectures day after day after day.

That is awesome. With actual paper.

Yes. Yeah, before cell phones or anything.

Well, it's funny because I myself dropped a podcast episode yesterday on how to make texting something that enhances your marriage and has some juice to it and is distinct from the kinds of interactions you have with colleagues and coworkers. And so sure enough, I was thinking, well, the inspiration for what to do in texting came from passing notes, each a pen in hand, back and forth.

I love that.

I love that.

Okay, so that was 1993, you start passing notes. And then why do you do this? Why are you passing notes with everybody? You're just kind of passing notes and seeing who responds, or how do you choose each other?

The reason we were passing notes is because Rod was, and sometimes still is, a very serious, focused, on-task student who pays great attention during lectures and then doesn't need to do any homework any other time. And I had just been on a date with him the night before, and I was thinking about where we would have lunch, and I really liked the shoes he was wearing, and the lecture was kind of boring, but it didn't matter because I was going to be studying a lot later that day because I needed to pore over the notes. It didn't come as easily to me. And so, if I whispered to him, I don't think we would be here. Over 30 years later.

No, that's what made it asynchronous at least.

Because you got to get your note and then still pay attention to the lecture and respond when you had a little gap in your attention span. Right.

I think that was our first of a zillion lessons in collaboration through acceptance and working with our differences.

Okay. Tell me more about that.

You say something.

Yeah, that's what I'm into. I'm trying to prod the rod, although that doesn't sound like it's very nice.

I like doing that.

I would love to hear from you, Rod, and just see like, what is it like for you? Because, you know, you and my wife are both married to people who are, you know, in the business of talking about relationships and doing things. And I'm always curious what it is to hear from people who are kind of along for the ride, for lack of a better phrase at the moment, I guess.

I want to tell you 2 things. One is that the thing that got me to notice Alexandra in the first place was because she was a standout person in our medical school class, not necessarily because of something academic she did or didn't do, but because she was more socially aware. And so the example of that was when they're giving a lecture, the lights are down, they're showing the slides, and then they pause the slides for a minute to go write something on the blackboard, but they don't turn on the lights. So we can't actually see what's on the blackboard. But then she'd be the one out of 103 people to raise her hand and say, would you please turn the lights on? It's the button there on the podium so that we can see what you just wrote.

Okay.

And then the lecturer would do that, and then we'd be able to see what they wrote, and then the lecturer would just go back to flipping the slides, and then she'd raise her hand again and say, okay, but if you turn the lights off again, then we can actually see your slides better. So that was something that I saw in her that really was attractive to me.

Yeah.

And, uh, that she wasn't just only focusing on the cognitive and the intellectual, but paying attention to the social environment and what was going on. And also being the willing to, the person being willing to speak up and say those things that other people were thinking, but not actually saying. Yeah.

What do you have a name for that?

Those in which, in her work now. Yeah.

Do you have a name for that? Like, what do you call that? Is it conscientiousness?

Well, I would call it speaking truth.

Okay.

And being aware.

Right on. And there's a third part though. There's a, there's like an initiative or there's a, what do you, Alexandra, what do you call it?

Well, I'll think about what I call it. But the thing I want to say is that I was lucky enough to have attended alternative education from when I was 3 till 12th grade. And then I was curious what it was like in public school. So I transferred for my senior year after Thanksgiving and graduated from public school. And then I went to an alternative college. And so when I was in medical school in these classes that Rod has described, it really was my first experience of having teachers who didn't seem to care whether or not we learned anything. Like, it was a— Mm-hmm. Very— not all of the lecturers, but many of them were just speaking, like going through their routine without any kind of relational orientation to how what was being spoken was actually being received and whether it was even available to be taken up. I mean, I agree with the description that Rod gave, but I would call it paying attention to what's on the periphery that is very directly influencing the essence of the moment.

Okay. I like the word relational. I think that's a quality of Alexandra.

That she appreciates the relationship that the professor maybe has with the students or the class, and especially when they're not paying attention. That's intriguing.

Oh, that she's tuned into that frequency.

Mm-hmm.

And other people might be ignoring it.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

All right.

That's one thing you want to tell me. What was the other thing you wanted to tell me?

Well, you seem to be asking about then and asking about now. So now my experience is she has a passion for bringing the fruits of our marriage and her work and her perspective out into the world. And I'm happy to support her in that passion.

How do you do that, Alexandra? How do you bring that passion from your relationship with Rod out into the world?

One way is that I used to be an extremely private person. I had never discussed sex with my mother until I'd already had 2 children. And Basically, if Rod said anything much beyond the fact that we were married, I would feel he was sharing too much. This is not an exaggeration. And somewhere along the line, I became very clear that we are all mammals. And the main way that mammals learn is through imitation. So yes, we need our prefrontal cortex when it comes to learning calculus or various things. But when it comes to relationships, the main context for learning is through modeling and imitation.

Okay.

And so I do not even a little bit think that people should aspire to have a relationship that mimics ours. But I do think that sharing about relationships that are decades in and full of love and passion and ongoing growth is really important for people to be exposed to because we're all exposed to a lot of bad advice and bad relationships. I think that part of that is because when we are in a committed relationship and our identity is in that relationship and we are loyal to that relationship, we're not complaining about our spouse the same way we might early in dating, or when the relationship is already over. Like, I'm not gonna— I mean, as a married woman, I don't mean as a relationship and intimacy coach, that I'm not gonna share bad things about our marriage because it makes me look bad. But we don't really hear about the good things either. So at a certain point, I just started sharing a lot. I share a lot about communication, about our sex life, about all kinds of things that honestly, in a never occurred to me anybody would care about besides the two of us.

Yeah.

But there just are not a lot of people who've been married for 30 years who are giving our version of the inside scoop. And at some point I turned to Rod and I said, like, actually I had people asking me, how does Rod feel that you're sharing these intimate details? And so I asked Rod and Rod's answer was, so long as it's true, I'm fine with your sharing it. So if I'm going to talk about good things in our marriage, he wants to be experiencing them before they, before I say anything.

Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. That happened to me yesterday. Uh, Rebecca, my wife, was reading an article about something and, uh, it was an article about airport divorce. And it was basically the concept of like when 2 people get to the airport, they just split up and they meet each other at the gate. Like they just, from the time they get out of the car, the Uber or whatever it is that got them to the airport, they're just, they're single and they meet at the gate and they meet on the plane so that they don't have to deal with each other's quirks and foibles around, do I want to get a burrito? And what do you, how do you treat the TSA guy? And what is the other thing? And I was like, I was like, I tell people that all the time because I feel that way. I feel like functionally that's how we do it. And she's like, that's not how we do it. I go, well, I tell people that all the time. And she got mad at me because I wasn't functionally telling the truth, but like emotionally, that's how I show up at the airport. So Rod, good on you for that. But I now, I want to know like, what is the inside scoop? I've been married almost 30 years. We'll celebrate 29 this summer. And what's the, what is the secret? How do you, how do you keep it fresh and alive and passionate and interesting? Like what have the two of you learned? And, uh, and that becomes part of your shtick for, for your for your clients and for the world?

There's a bunch of things, but one thing that is a good place to start is about curiosity. Because as a parent, it was easy to see my children would grow and change, and each year they're a different person than they were the year before, and they get a little bigger. But it was harder to think of Alexandra changing or me changing. So I had to be deliberate to be curious and ask questions to see, well, how is she thinking about things now and what's on her mind now and not assume that I knew just because I knew how it was yesterday or 5 years ago, the answer to a particular question. So having— pushing myself to keep accessing curiosity has been—

Have you always been curious or did you, did you take on a specific practice or what did you do to foster that curiosity? Because I think you're right. I think, I mean, I, I think I preach curiosity from the mountaintops, but sometimes people are like, this is not my thing. So how did, how did it become your thing?

I think I have a feeling of when life is boring versus when it feels exciting. And So it started with me going off and doing some personal growth seminar and coming back, or Alexandra going off and doing some activity and coming back, and then being curious what she experienced.

Mm-hmm.

Like, oh, I did that same thing, uh, you know, 6 months ago. What did you experience? What was it like for you? But then I could feel that that day or the week after hearing about her whole experience, I felt much more alive and our relationship felt much more vibrant than the week or two before when it was kind of in a routine. So it was having those experiences and noticing them that said, hey, let's keep doing this. Let's be more. Let's even do it more.

Yeah, that's cool. So you, you've introduced a second thing now, which is not just curiosity, but also novelty.

Yeah. I mean, I think a second thing is just being growth-focused in general. Being, being interested in my own— in growing as a person myself, and not stagnating, and supporting Alexandra also to be a person who grows if that's an interest of hers. And, you know, the thing that often comes up in our circles is that marriage itself winds up being a vehicle for personal growth. For the fact that we're married to Alexandra winds up adding to my personal growth.

Alexandra, what would you say? Like, if you—

if—

would that be your answer if I said, how do you How do you encourage or coach people to keep intimacy alive, say, 30 years in? Do you start with curiosity?

Yes. Although I think, I do think that curiosity is the secret sauce. It is infinitely incredible. And I guess I just want to say a few things about it, because if you think back to the feeling of being in love, it is filled with curiosity. We want to know, like, where did you get that scar? And what was your favorite vegetable? And if you didn't have this What would it be like? There's something about the feeling of being in love and having curiosity that just kind of falls away typically with the ease of familiarity. And there is something so wonderful about feeling like you know your spouse and things are familiar, but it doesn't need to come at the cost of curiosity. But I have 2 different things to say in addition. One is that, like, I really appreciate this interview and you asking us these questions, because what I'm about to say, it's not really anything I've said before or we've discussed.

Oh, I love that.

But it is very active for me because with curiosity, we tend to orient to it as the person asking the questions is being curious. And then, so if Rod asks me questions, then I get to just answer.

And they're like for him. It's like, yeah, I get what you mean. Like where you ask a question and somehow the question is for the asker.

And well, it's not only for the asker, it's also for me as the speaker.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But there's a way in which he asks the question, which functionally puts attention on me and my experience. And I have historically and probably still would if I weren't intentional, then my attention is on my experience too. And so I could take the question and just keep talking and essentially verbally processing or sharing whatever has arisen in me. But I feel like for the two of us, that it's co-created and collaborative to have curiosity bring such a rich return. Because when Rod asks— he might ask me a question and I could write a book in response, but I know that if I start articulating that book, his curiosity is going to taper off and it's going to be too much. In fact, in In the past, if I would respond to curiosity or just of my own volition, start sharing something emotional, Rod would quickly tire because he didn't know what to do with that. So he has learned to stay with me, but I have also learned to respond to the questions in a way that still stays connected. And not just take it as he's handed me the mic, so what am I gonna say? But he's handed me—

Consider your audience too.

Yeah, he's handed me the mic and how do I prioritize the sense of connection between us no matter what my response is to his curiosity?

Yeah, so you're sort of saying that like effective communication particularly where communication is at the heart of it, is a function of being subjectively curious and interested, but also understanding the object, what they can handle, what they can take, what, you know what I mean? Like there's a—

I mean, if you ask about what's an important element of our connection or a good marriage, having those kind of communication skills so that Alexandra can meet 2 needs. One is her desire to self-express, to answer the question, and also her desire that it can land well so I can actually receive it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, one of the phrases that I say often is connection over content. Content's important, but to have the attention on the connection a little bit more. And that usually comes up when people are having challenging conversations, disagreements, they don't see eye to eye. And so maintaining attention on the connection a little bit more than on the content. But I think that's also really important in conversations that aren't charged, in various questions that are relatively benign.

Okay. I'm going to ask the question that I think people who are listening really want to know the answer to, which is, Okay, yes, curiosity, I'm into it. Connection, important, helps with conversation. You got to know your audience, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. How do you draw the line then to actual intimacy and passion?

I don't think that anyone has fully identified the mechanism of action for how curiosity and connection leads into naked passion. However, I think part— my way of understanding this has to do also with understanding what sex is, because it's not just a physical act. The experience of intimacy, it comes with a sense of being seen and being expressed and feeling like your experience matters, all of which can be cultivated and reinforced and collaboratively experienced through curiosity. So I think it's a very direct line. The other thing is that, you know, not necessarily with one-night stands or very early in relationships, but in long-term relationships where you're having sex with the person for hundreds and thousands of times the same person. I think every encounter is an emotional communication also that we tend to be unconscious about. And maybe it's, I just need some stress relief, or maybe it's—

Hmm.

I feel obliged to do this so you will help me clean up the house tomorrow. But it also can be, I'm feeling really tender and I want to open my heart to you, or let's be playful together. I mean, it can be any kind of communication, but I feel like the thing I wanted to say earlier is that curiosity, yes, it is definitely something we turn to one another with, but fundamentally, The natural consequence of being curious about someone else on a regular basis is that we become, or I become quite curious about myself as well.

Huh.

I'm going to think about that phrase quite a bit. The idea of the natural consequence, consequence of being curious is, that's an interesting, I'm going to think about that a lot. And it's the consequences that I become curious about myself as well. Is that what you said?

Yeah, because when I'm giving a certain quality of attention to Rod, then it makes me wonder, well, what are my answers to that? And what was I thinking then?

Interesting. Rod, I cut you off. What were you about to say?

I was just going to say that if I have a conversation with Alexandra in which I feel like I communicated what was on the inside of myself, and she received it, and and vice versa. Then that supports being sexual together. Whereas if we I've had an interaction recently where I that didn't happen, I don't feel like she really gets me or whatever. That forms a barrier that's going to make it harder to be. intimate together and to feel connected in the bedroom. So, so choosing to focus on the connection when we're having day-to-day conversations at a minimum makes less baggage in the way when it comes to bedroom time.

Okay, so let me ask you to speak directly to their— my guess is that mostly women are listening to this podcast and they're married to guys. that they want to be more connected to and that they want to have more bias toward connection. And maybe they're a little heady. Maybe they're the kind of guys that can sit in a lecture, pay attention. They don't have to do any homework because they can absorb it and turn it into the next thing. Like, what do you have for those guys? What can you offer those guys after 30 years of learning about what does it mean to open up? Like, what's the tip or trick that you would give them to help them unlock this? this sort of headier posture vis-à-vis the heart one that you're talking about?

You want me to give the guy a suggestion?

Yeah.

If your audience is the ladies, one suggestion I might have for them, and you'll have plenty, I'm sure, is before you have a conversation, tell your man what kind of conversation you're about to have.

Okay.

I'd like to just have a logistical conversation with you right now, or I'd like to just vent a little, and all you have to do is just listen to me with half your brain, but I just want to say what's on my mind so I can get it off my mind.

Okay.

Say first the kind of communication you're about to have together, and then do it, and then afterwards say like, thank you for just listening to me, or thank you for doing whatever I asked. So if I'm set up as the man, To know what I— my job is. Like, my job is just to listen and say thank you at the end, or my job is to listen for the problem and then give my logistical suggestions for how to fix it or whatever. If I know, uh, you know, how to listen, it makes it much easier to have a fun interaction together.

100%. I'm on board. Okay, so we've set the table. And now I'm a guy and I've just sat down at the meal. What's my job?

I would say that your job is to remember, remember which kind of— or if she didn't set it up, try to figure out which kind of interaction this is. Because a lot of times what messes it up is if I think it's a help me fix a problem conversation, but it's actually a I'm just venting my emotions conversation.

Yeah.

Or I think we're, we're going to talk about how to take care of the kids, but actually it's about, um, you know, like, like for example, talking about a vacation. Is this just window shopping and we're just going to fantasize about our vacation, or are we actually going to be practical about some details? And so I, I, I'm going to listen in a different way and I'm going to respond in a different way. And if I'm I think it's important as a man, for me, it was important for me to develop patience and tolerance, like trust that she's going somewhere with this and that I can just listen. But also, for me, it was important to be clear, like try to brainstorm for myself. Well, what kind of interaction are we having right now so that I'm not just missing the whole thing. Like, we've been talking for 20 minutes and I'm— I think we're having one kind of conversation, she has another, and then I finally say something and she's like, what? You know, and then she suddenly feels like we're not connected and, and it's because we weren't actually having the same conversation with each other.

Yeah. You know, I, I am right 100% on board. I think that's a— that happens way more often than you think, that people are in totally different conversations, mostly because they haven't They haven't agreed beforehand what it is that we're talking about. I love to thinking about like a lot of things that we all think in theory and that we can sort of, you know, speculate about or write about that literally you're describing in practice. You're describing like, no, this is just how you practice getting closer. And for you, knowing what the conversation is and where it's headed helps you open up.

Yeah.

your heart, perhaps, or to help you open up to intimacy with the person that you're talking to, with Alexandra?

Yeah, well, it helps me feel like a success.

Okay.

It helps me feel like, uh, it— and it's easier for me to see how to get to the end of the conversation and we both feel good about it.

Yeah, I love that.

Because it just is— it doesn't feel good if it doesn't work for her or it doesn't work for me.

Yeah.

So if, if, and sometimes halfway through the conversation, if I like, I'll, I'll pause and say, wait, wait a minute. Which kind of conversation are we having right now? Are we having the logistical? Because I was, I was a little lost there. And then yeah, she can clarify and then she can get right back to it. But it means then I know how to listen. And so I can also be successful. Like, are we going to go back and forth or is this just time for you? And my job is just to listen, you know, because if she just wants to be listened to, but then I keep interrupting with, yeah, I don't like, you know, such and such a person in our lives. And, and that friend doesn't do that the right way. And she just, it winds up being like an ick, like a dissonance there in the connection between us. But if we're both rowing in the same direction, then there isn't that. problem. And then we can both feel like it was successful, a successful communication, and we feel more connected afterwards.

I want to add something to this, which is that, I mean, this is not what Rod does professionally. And every single thing that has been shared is a hard-won lesson because we screwed it up so badly. And each of us had our feelings hurt so much. So When we first got married, I had traveled more and I loved thinking, oh, you know, maybe we can go to Italy together. And Rod would just clamp down because he thought I was actually ready to get out my calendar and buy a flight and take us both to, you know, have us both go to Italy. And that was like never in my mind. I was just like sharing my enthusiasm for our future life together. Like every single thing that's been said, it's because we just messed it up. But in being devoted to our own and one another's personal growth, we have looked for solutions. So in terms of the woman who's listening, I have a few more tips, which honestly, when they first occurred to me, I found them disgusting. It's just that they work. And so one of them—

By all means, yeah, let us hear it.

So I came to understand That when I was sharing emotional terrain and like verbally moving through my emotional landscape, both as a way of processing and it was a way of sharing and wanting Rod to join me on in that, both through listening with presence and sharing his own experiences, I came to understand that that left Rod feeling Unmoored, ungrounded, unsuccessful, and therefore unavailable. And so one of the things I learned to do— this is an example of something that I at first found disgusting and now I feel completely neutral about because it works— is to say how long I'm going to speak. So when I— we don't do this anymore because it's not necessarily— not necessary. It functions sort of like training wheels that we used for many, many years.

Yeah. But yeah, when I was younger, you can underestimate that. Let me pause for a second because I think that's actually a really important thing to hit. Like the fact that you start doing this in a way that is maybe disgusting and doesn't feel too good doesn't mean you have to do it for the rest of your life. You can actually develop competency that comes all the way around to this thing. So I love that you just inserted that part. But, um, but what did you learn along the way?

Well, to say to Rod, I just want to share this with you for 10 minutes or 20 minutes. Like, I'm not— the point is not the particular length of time, but to give a length of time. It's basically for him, it was creating a safe container, meaning he definitely had 10 minutes in him to be fully present with me.

Mm-hmm.

If I didn't say that, just the nature of my sharing my internal emotional landscape, he never knew if I was about to be complete or if I was going to talk another 2 hours.

Right.

Because it wasn't like following an outline, A to B to C to D, etc. He couldn't see the logic. And I might get another swell of something like, but then he said this and You know, whatever. So I learned, and the important thing with that is to actually honor that. So not to say I'm going to take 10 minutes and then 25 minutes later say, oh, I went over, but to really, like, literally set a timer. And then at 10 minutes, I rarely was done with the first time, but then I would say, you know, are you available for another 15?

Hmm.

And in asking that kind of a question, it has to be a real question, not just a rhetorical one, meaning he could say yes or he could say no. And in this way, Rod grew his capacity. But what's even more important is that he grew his own awareness of his capacity so that rather than shutting down and then we'd realize, oops, we passed the point where his capacity was maxed.

Right.

he could pace himself and be more aware. And were there times when I had a lot more I wanted to share, either about how I was upset with him or something else in my life? And he said no. Yeah, but that also builds trust that the yes is really a yes.

Yeah.

And he can also say no. So that is One of those kinds of things that we don't do anymore, but we did a lot.

What do you know about why you labeled that disgusting?

Because that's a great question. And I wouldn't have expressed, like, I wouldn't have confessed to it being so repulsive to me. But what was repulsive is that as a woman, sharing my feelings and my experiences experience and my upsets and my triumphs. I just wanted to feel freedom. That very freedom that for him was chaos and confusion.

Mm-hmm.

But for me to put a timer on it, it felt restrictive, like this thing that in its nature was not containable. It just has a natural— like, it's a wave that I was riding. And so to put a timeline on— a time frame on it, I, I felt like, oh, I'm not going to be able to be authentic, or I'm not going to really be able to honor my process, which is the very thing I yearn for. Wow. And if I wanted to be a single person, that'd be fine. I don't know who'd be listening, but Sure. You know, and so if I—

you just start a podcast.

And then I can talk as long as I want. That is very funny. My podcast episodes have gotten shorter with the years. So that's particularly funny. But anyway, um, but if what I actually desire is a certain quality of connection, then it behooves me to take into account both of our experiences. And I'm, I really mean to convey this wasn't people pleasing. It wasn't like I was changing how I did it so he would be happy. It was that I changed how I did it and acknowledged the time or spoke about it in the way I've just described because that was going to create the collaborative win-win, which then feels really good regardless of what I've just shared.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm into it. I feel like, uh, I'm, I feel really grateful to speak to you both because, you know, again, things that I think about in theory and even try to impose upon my clients, like you're literally talking about in practice. And so it's very fun to hear you describe that. And, um, I, uh, also want to respect your time and I got to get going in myself. So I want to make sure that if people are interested to hear more from you in particular, Alexandra, what is the best way for them to connect with your work and your point of view and your podcast? Tell us how to find you.

Thank you. The best way is alexandrastockwell.com. That's my website. And from there, you can find my book, my app, my courses, my coaching, and my podcast, The Intimate Marriage Podcast, which I will say, my— for many listeners, the favorite episodes are the ones that Rod joins me for. So there's lots of both of us on the Intimate Marriage Podcast.

Very cool. And Rod, do you want to, you want to have a shout out? Where, how do people find you? Do they just, they just connect with you through Alexandra or do you have like your own shtick?

No, I mean, I work as a medical doctor and people find me because they need to find me. But in terms of this work, it's fine to reach out through Alexandra.

Very cool.

Very cool.

She has a contact page on the website.

Well, very good. Listen, thank you so much for finding time with me and for rescheduling. I really look forward to sharing this episode with my people and having them discover more about both of you. So.

Nice to meet you.

Thank you. And I really appreciate how you ask questions. I think it's, you have a really special flavor.

Thanks.