Sex as a Hobby, Not a Test You Have to Pass

Hello my friends, we are here with an amazing guest, Zach Brittle today. So welcome Zach.

Hi, Heather Shannon, how you doing?

I'm doing great. Okay, so what what are some of the common things you're seeing? So it sounds like you specialize really in just working with couples who are struggling.

Yeah. So I'm in private practice here in Seattle and my practice is almost exclusively couples. I have a few individuals here, but you know, they're coming in all over the map, right? Like I always say about this room, I'm in my office today that this room is, you know, different depending on kind of who's in it. Sometimes it's a courtroom, sometimes it's a classroom, sometimes it's a laboratory or playground, you know, it really sometimes a yoga studio. sometimes it's a bedroom. I'm not like I'm not strictly in people's bedrooms, but it's amazing the stories that people feel the freedom to tell their therapist, you know, without shame or embarrassment and Which is great. yeah. I mean, I was just thinking the other day about stuff that people tell me in here that if they told me in polite conversation, I don't know if I would know what to do with it. I would be like, Did you just literally say that out loud and you're at this Do you ever

I feel like because of the work I do I'm like broken for polite conversation. Do you ever feel that way?

I do. I mean, the the thing for me right now is we're going to all these weddings. that's we're in the kind of like the wedding season, but these weddings are all of our friends' kids.

Okay.

So like children who came up with our kids whose diapers you may have changed, who, you know, we've babysat over the weekend or whatever, you know, they're getting married and they're making all these like big pronouncements about love and commitment and And God bless I hope that it works out for sure. Like but it's you know, forty years later we're I mean, I've been married almost thirty years, sort of like, my gosh, we were so dumb. We're so so we did not have any idea what we were doing, you know.

Think about that with marriage vows sometimes. I'm like, they do seem very unrealistic sometimes. I'm like, what would honest honest marriage vows really be? You know.

Well, I mean you'd have to add something like for better or for worse, even though I have no idea what that means. For richer or for poorer, even though we don't have any concept of what money is on the planet right now. Right. In sickness and in health, which doesn't include which definitely includes when you get sick, but might not include your ADHD diagnosis. You know, like what is you'd have to kind of caveat everything because there's you know, there's a lot more that we don't know than that we do and people say yes. Yeah. And they don't know what they're saying yes to. And so, you know, sometimes you need to come into a room like mine, this a therapy office, and realize that maybe I'm not maybe I'm not so confident in my decision to say yes. But then if you if you face that and then you say yes again, that actually is really powerful. You know, it's actually really, you know, really meaningful. And so sex is this thing that people say yes to when it's fun and athletic and unencumbered. And it's a little bit like a job interview. You're like, hey, I'm gonna keep see if I can keep doing this. Maybe I can get the job. You know? The first thing anybody does when they get their job is they loosen their tie, right? They go, Okay, I have to work so hard. Which is what happens, right? So that's that's the that's the observation I have on that scene right now. Yeah.

I think that's really great point about sex specifically because so often people will come in and they're kind of like, Well, sex was great when we first got together. I'm like, No, but it kind of doesn't count because you've got all these extra hormones, you're kind of in this, you know, like limerence phase or whatever. And then, you know, you're also putting your best foot forward and then sometimes we get a little bit complacent later on down the road.

Well, y the thing that you have early on is that you know what it's for, you know, it's for fun, it's for you know, it's for to getting the job, it's for you know, reassurance and connection and and then, you know, we get married and we're kind of again we don't quite need to have it all the time or have it in the same kind of way. At least this is the standard path. So, you know Eventually we start deciding that we maybe we wanna have kids, so now sex is for something else. Mm-hmm. You know. Sex is for pregnancy and it's you know, a specific time and specific positions and you know, people, particularly people who are having a hard time getting sex, like it really changes. Like it's are sorry, getting pregnant. Mm-hmm. It really changes because it's no longer fun at all. It's a right. It's a task, you know, it's a it's a thing. And and then maybe we're done having kids. And now what is it for? Like what's it for? And I think that's that's often what's at the heart of it for people is that they haven't figured out you know, what purpose this is meant to serve. And so, 'cause they already have the job and they already have the kids. So and now I have a body that doesn't that's not quite as athletic as it used to be and then gets tired at eight o'clock and you know, so yeah. So it's d it's a weird it's a weird thing. Yeah, this kind of to elevate so highly as part of the process of being in love with someone and then to have it often become such a minor role minor thing is really challenging psychologically for people.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right there. And I know a lot of people feel like at least with the people I'm talking to, they're feeling like kind of like I know I should or I know it's important for the relationship. And that was something I kind of fell into in a long term relationship too, where it was like, I feel like I should check this box because if I don't, it's like a really bad sign. But then obviously that can lead to issues too, where you're, you know, and we were talking before I hit record about like kind of trying too hard and maybe not trying in a way that's really gonna be impactful. So I'm curious what you see with that.

Well, t trying too hard to what? Great question. I mean you always have to fill in, I think, you know, when people come in here or they listen to like I think the value of listening to podcasts, particularly if you listen to something consistently, you know, is you get this you get sort of an expanded vocabulary. and you learn that that phrases need more. Like it's you talked about this idea of I should do this. But should is a is a i it's a variable thing, like should in order to what. You know, in order to feel closer, in order to get pregnant, in order to obey my husband, those are all different executions of should and they kinda they mean different things. So you know I think we have to finish the phrase, but this idea of you know in order to what really becomes primary, I think, when you're trying to change the the nature of what sex is in your relationship. Yeah. What do want it to be? You know? Yeah. So they come in here and you know, if the goal is spontaneous P and V intercourse where you both orgasm at the exact same time, you know, that's lovely. And it would be really cool. But it's it's a it's kind of a you know, it's sort of a Hail Mary offer. It's a pretty rare thing unless you unless you practice. And so now Practice what? okay, now we're talking. You know, now we can like start to talk about like what counts as this thing that you want to work on. Because if you're just working on amazing, mutually edifying sex as the outcome, you know, there's a lot of pieces that go in place before that that I think people won't skip over.

Okay, say more about that. What are the things people are skipping?

Well, I mean part of what they're skipping is just talking about it. Talking about it. What what is this for?

Fascinating. It's like people will take all their clothes off and put their parts inside each other and then they don't want to talk about it. Yeah.

Yeah, part part it is talking about it. My wife and I had a we were we were we were at one of these weddings this last weekend and we had a day off beforehand. We just floated down the river, just got a got into some invertubes and floated down the river for four or three hours and we talked about sex, you know, most of that time. You know, fully clothed, unable to execute, you know, thinking, you know, trying to dodge rapids and ducks and put pushes. But, you know, we had a whole conversation. a sexually intimate conversation without any touching at all. You know? And I've you know what I what I'll say to people is I think intimacy itself is pretty broad and kind of multifaceted and includes physical intimacy, which is about proximity. It's about being just in each other's orbit. And it includes sexual intimacy, which is it, of course, it's its thing, but I think people people need to have in terms of skeps steps they're skipping, people need to have More physical intimacy that's not sexual and more sexual intimacy that's not physical, like Rebecca and I did on the river, like where we just I like that. We had we had sexual intimacy but we didn't touch each other and but we are a lot smarter and we're a lot more aligned. And our understanding and our and our

I also love that you're doing that thirty years into your marriage. Like I think that's important.

Right? Because if you don't Yeah. What are you talking about? Talking about the kids. Right. Talking about whether or not, you know, have enough suntan lotion on, talking about whether or not, you know, we think this couple's gonna make it. Mm-hmm. Did I say this out loud already? I can't remember, but we're in this era of going to our friends' kids' weddings. I said that right, right? It's wild. Wild to see these children that you literally raised, making these promises that they have no idea about and Whether that's as a as a lay person or even as a couples therapist, I'm sort of like, Okay, okay, okay.

What do you think people should know before getting married?

I don't know, man. I think I think functionally we have to appreciate that any long term marriage is probably four or five different marriages. You know, like the first one is the one that is run by limerence, the one you're describing. Mm-hmm. And it is the one that you take pictures of and it is the one that you feel really good about, and it is the one that you, you know. Hope lasts forever. But, you know, we've been married almost thirty years and I think we've been married four, four or five times, you know. Yeah, that's different phases, different eras. And I don't think people there's no reason to have an understanding of that. There's no reason to appreciate that. Like

Right.

we don't learn things until we learn them. So even if people are listening to this podcast and they think that, that's a really thing. Yeah, I should figure that out. You're not gonna figure that out. Like you're gonna you're just gonna accept that you have no idea what that is. Yeah. But I think, you know, if I were giving a piece of hyper practical advice to people who are about to get married, I would say have a couples therapist. like the same way that you have a dentist or a financial advisor or a mechanic and plan to visit with that person at a minimum about every three years for six weeks or so to help you level up.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a I love that idea.

Hyper practical piece of advice. Yeah. I would say find somebody that you know you can count on to speak into your life. Maybe it's not a therapist, maybe it's your pastor, your parent, or your whatever, but but have a regular practice of, you know, checking in and pivoting into the next thing. And this isn't strictly, I mean, that number three is not a I didn't make that up. That's kind of a it's kind of an origin of the species number. Like when when tribes were wandering around trying to figure out how To make, you know, humans work, what would happen is she would ovulate and she'd have sex with like five or six guys, and then a baby would come out and it would look like this guy over here, you know, Tom. Tom would raise that baby for about three years until the baby was like kind of ready to participate. And then she would ovulate again and she'd have sex with five or six guys, and a baby might come out looking like Tom, but it might come out looking like, you know, Steve or something. And so then Steve was hanging out. So these units were these like kind of three year units really until people stopped wandering around. Like once they start wandering around, Tom would get a piece of land and he would hook up with Betty and Tom and Betty would make, you know, a family that would then steward that land. But that ev even that wasn't love. That was, you know, how are we gonna make this thing work? Right. And so I think, you know, that number three has followed anthropolo anthropology around since then. 'Cause you know, you meet somebody and about three years later you get married, about three years later you have a kid, about three years later you have another kid, and then then about three years later you buy a house, and about eighteen years later your kids start leaving, and about you know, there's this whole interesting sort of cycle of kind of ebb and flow of you know, relational capacity that needs to be revisited and that probably includes your sex life.

If you are digging this episode, give us a follow on whatever platform you're listening on. This helps us to keep producing the show, to grow the show, get all the amazing guests that you want, and spread the word about sex education and lots of fun and orgasms and playfulness and happy faces. So follow the show. Thanks, guys. It should. I I think what I see though, it's interesting what you said about, you know, yeah, sex usually starts out strong and it's fun and it's connective. And I think people tend to assume that it's gonna stay that way and it's it's maybe it maybe there's someone out there where it does and there's like no hiccups, but I don't know that person. you know, but yeah, people's bodies change. What was that? Probably not. No, they're definitely not.

They're not listening to your podcast. They're not they don't need any help. They're not asking for help.

It's like blissfully ignorant of problems. But but I think for the, you know, other ninety nine point nine percent of people, it's like, we didn't know some things about ourselves sexually going into this, or we didn't think that there's certain things that were important to communicate up front, or we just figured we let our bodies do the talking and you know

Sure. And then if you're a woman, if you're a woman and you're letting your body do the talking, your body is a wild, unpredictable, adaptive thing that isn't at at twenty five is is not the same at twenty five and thirty five or forty five and fifty five. It's not the same before and after children. So this idea that like, sex was X for me as a woman in my body, or rather let me say I'm a man. I'm a man and sex well the but this is this is the expectation that I had.

Right. Yeah.

Right. Like this is w this is who I married. I didn't marry the the person who went through perimenopause. Well, yeah, that's why about every three years you gotta like kinda reset and figure out a

Checking in. Yeah. Yeah, like a relationship is not this static fixed thing. It's it's alive.

And it's not strictly an evolutionary thing. Like meaning like it doesn't just run its own course. Like you have to you have to prune it and steward it and you know, give up some stuff and add some new stuff as as you go. You know.

Absolutely. So okay, so let's get into some of the patterns that you think what do people think they need to work on when it comes to sex? Like when they're trying so hard and they're like, we're gonna trust this, we're gonna fix this, and what do they actually need to work on?

The easy one is they they think they need to work on more.

Yeah, yes.

More frequency. I mean that's usually the thing. We're we we need to have it more frequency. But I think they need to work on are they good at it? Yeah. Like is there a skill that they can learn or add to their their you know I have a client who's in the pornography industry and she's you know, she's a she's a sex haver in the same way that like NFL players are football players. Like they're good at they're good at football. She is good at sex. And it's because she has a lot of practice and she's tried things out and she's learned how to do things and she's needed to be good at it in order to keep a job and you know. but she really helped me frame and this is I I'll give her credit for this, she's really helped me frame the idea that it is a skill. It is a skill that you can be good at or bad at. And that you can also get better at. And that's the important thing. So when people talk about, you know working harder or they come in and the target is more, I'm like, how about smarter or better? Mm-hmm. You know? and again, that might include conversation. It might include, you know, doing a little research. I don't actually know it'd be silly if you don't know who Emily Nagoski is, but I love her work and the way that she thinks about educating people in this space. so it may just mean education. Yeah. And then it might mean trying some stuff out. I'm gonna try out this new oral sex technique and see what you think. And then we then we then we debrief it later. And I don't think people have given themselves permission to think about sex in that way because it's private and it's sacred and it's you know, it's a little bit awkward, but

People hate the awkwardness of like you I think you should. Like do I like to call it like a sex lab or a kissing lab. It's like, let's just kind of lower the stakes and try some things and see what lands, you know? Yeah.

Well, I mean, here's the other thing. I forget whose idea this is, not mine, but it's the idea that like what if you what if you thought about sex like any other hobby that you decided to take on? You know, like if you were to gonna learn to play tennis, mm-hmm, there are things that you would do. You would you would buy tennis gear, you would maybe probably watch some tennis on TV, you might take some lessons. Mm-hmm. You would go to tennis court and you would go there for the purpose of working on your backhand, not strictly always go there to work on playing a set to win. Right. Right. Like there if there are things that you would do with

An analogy.

your hobby that people don't think about when it comes to sex. A part because I mean, I imagine a lot of people heard me say, What if sex was a hobby? And they went, what do you mean? That that no, it's a it's a vow or something, you know. But if it's a thing that you want to get better at, you gotta practice. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And you know, I don't think people spend a lot of time thinking in those terms because what they want is the result. They wanna they wanna win Wimbledon. Right. You know. They don't want to just have fun.

And I and there's kind of this expectation I've noticed also where people just feel like they should just know. I'm like, Well how? How would you magically know? Porn is not educational, that's entertainment. You know, you're not s really seeing actual people like having sex. Your parents certainly didn't tell you. Church didn't tell you, school didn't tell you. So why should you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean again. It makes sense to me. Yeah. Pass down and you know, I think, you know, part of why conversations like the ones you're having on a regular basis are so valuable is just demystify it. Take out the yeah, take out the the crate the kind of the crazy baggage that's always attached to it and say maybe it's simpler.

No. Right. Just try something. And I mean, I think what you said about your client who works in pornography, like I also just interviewed a former Dominatrix and what I'm learning is like they keep trying things and then they communicate about it. Like even the pros don't just magically know and are just like magically gifted with some sort of like divine sex skills, you know? Like they were

Like what do you like, what don't you like? Yes. Is this okay? Is this not okay? How do you want, you know, do you want you know, and they have agreements before they even get into the into the scene that levels the expectation, you know, because if you if you're not clear It's really easy to harm somebody. yeah. Or it's really easy to not give them pleasure.

Right.

Sure. Never mind harm. Right. Sometimes you're just not even learning how to pleasure someone.

Well, and I think especially like you were saying, I've I've seen female clients where once the quality of the sex improves and they do get good at it, whatever that means for them, the frequency often winds up increasing.

Sure. Sure. So I like that. Here's a question that Emily asked that I love, which is this idea of like, this is that when you don't want sex, what don't you want?

That's great question.

Right? Yes. I don't want to be bored. I don't want a physical pain. I don't want to sweat. Right. I don't want my kids to hear. I don't want like 'cause there's a lot of information in that question. Because if if the if the assumption is when they don't want sex, they don't want you

Right.

Then you get again, here comes all this crazy baggage that may not actually be real.

Right.

Right. You know?

Yeah. And I I think that's one of the main patterns that I'm seeing is that people take it really personally. You know, like if if a guy's not getting an erection and his partner's a female, you know, she might be like, I it's 'cause I'm not attractive anymore. he doesn't you know and I'm like I think that's maybe five, maybe ten percent of the cases is it actually lack of attraction. I would say ninety percent plus it's something.

Yeah. Yeah, and but it also is like, Okay, so you can't get an erection, but your I bet your tongue still works.

Thank you.

You know, I bet you're I bet you could still make out for a little while. I bet you could still you know, we could still do something a little less sexual, but maybe it's a massage with some oil or something. Like if the if the if sex is for let's just call it his erection, then you've eliminated ninety percent of what is available as a sexual activity. You know.

And a lot of people do view it that way, then I think it limits their creativity. so yeah, I think it's important to keep keep trying new things, you know.

Well, I mean, you know, I I come back to these two questions that I'm often starting this conversation with clients. one is, what's it for? Which we've already talked about a little bit. And then the other one is what counts? What counts as sexual intimacy?

Check some.

Does it count if we like make out in the shower? Does it count if we go to a store and whack each other with dildos? Does it count if only one of us comes? Right. Does it count if we don't have intercourse in the process of this? sexual activity that we've or this sexual moment that we've initiated right now. Right. Does does all that count? Because if it doesn't count, then I like so the only thing that counts is like the home run, you know? Right. That's hard to do. I don't want to do that.

It's a narrow definition and then we're also like erasing two women having sex and erasing oral sex as sex.

Goofy. Well and you've introduced a lot of ways to fail. Right. You know? Yeah. Versus lots of ways to succeed.

Yeah. man, I love that. Yeah, what if it's like there's all these paths and it's like a choose your own adventure instead of a, you know, you have to get a hundred percent on the test in this one particular way with the time limit, you know?

Yeah. The most successful couple I have in my practice that has like successfully moved from satisf sex that was unsatisfying to sex that is satisfying is they they we talked about it for a long time and they finally negotiated their deal, which they now keep religiously. They have sex twice a week. They have sex on Wednesday night, they have sex on Wednesday night and Saturday morning. Okay. And Wednesday night is for him. Okay. And so the he whatever he wants. Whatever he wants, he gets on one. And so if that's like a like try a new position or play with a toy or just get a blow job and go to sleep, like that's what he gets. Saturday morning is for her. Okay. Saturday morning, she gets whatever she wants. If she wants a bubble bath, if she wants a long, you know, tender love making session, that's what she gets. That's what she w gets. And okay. They have they have stuck to that and it has driven their Since it's removed all this questions about rejection and initiation. It's removed all the questions about, you know, what are we doing here? It's removed all their questions about you know, preference. Like she's like,

Yeah.

I have yeah. She's like, I have no preferences tonight. Like I my preference is for you to feel good and get what you want out of this interaction. And you know, they're attuned to each other enough that it's not like either one of them is behaving Selfishly. I mean they're there a little bit, there's a little bit of selfishness bacon, but they're not like, ha ha, I love sex on Wednesday and I hate sex on Saturday, you know. Right. They love that they don't have to navigate through a lot of the questions that some people are navigating, even unconsciously. And they're really clear about what's it for and what counts.

Yeah, I love that. I've I have not really thought about the idea of like decision fatigue around sex, but now that you're saying it, I I have a lot of clients who are just overthinkers about like, yeah, should I initiate? Well should I initiate? And then like is my partner gonna think that's weird? Am I misreading the cues? Is now a bad time? Am I gonna be bothering them? You know, like there can be a lot of like analysis and overthinking involved at times.

Well and even just the idea, like I want it to be spontaneous. I'm like, great. That would be great. If it was spontaneous. That'd be great. Is it? Yeah.

With that.

No, it's not. Okay, okay. Is there anything else in your life that's spontaneous? Do you spontaneously have meals? Do you spontaneously go to the gym? Yeah. Do you spontaneously go to sleep? No, we we plan everything that we love and that we care about. You know? so you know, if sex is a priority for you, then sure. Could it be spontaneous? That'd be great. But if it's not, then you gotta make it a priority. with your time.

Exactly. And it's and that might change over the years too, right? Like when you don't have kids and your jobs aren't overly demanding and you're together a lot and you know you have highly

Floating down the river and you're not quite sure what you're gonna do with the rest of your weekend. Like you gotta talk about, you know.

Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's like when you're parents and you have three kids and you're taking them in different camps and you're just like, I don't have a minute to myself, it's like you're probably gonna have to schedule it. Yeah. Or at least time for intimacy, whatever that means, you know.

Well who's the other one that I talked to? I don't know if you know Susan Bratton's name, but she came on

He's been on this show three times.

Yeah yeah. Well she I love her notion of she doesn't she doesn't encourage people to schedule sex. She she encourages them to schedule erotic play dates.

That's I like that too, yes.

So it's like it's not it's not, okay, here we are, and I hope I can get hard and I hope that you're wet enough and that we can pull this off. It's more like, All right, here we are, and what are we gonna play? What do you wanna play? You wanna play wanna play technique? You wanna play, you know, research, you wanna play let's watch a movie, do you want like what do you wanna play in this erotic space that we've made for each other? and I think that's really a critical piece of the puzzle, you know.

Yeah. I like that idea too. 'Cause so much so much I'm constantly talking about how pressure like kills sex and so if it's like must perform, that's not gonna be fun. But if it's like, hey, we get to do whatever we feel like doing and communicate what we're in the mood for, then it becomes something like

You know, learn something new, have a different kind of experience. Like that can all be really really clever.

I know. I think so too. okay, so we know that people tend to focus on frequency. What are some other things you think people tend to focus on that maybe is not the real thing they need to be focusing on?

I don't know. I mean, I think again, when sex is outcome based, yeah whether that outcome is his erection or her or her orgasm or anything in between, you know, then you you're sort of outsourcing the possibility that it can be good, you know, versus can it be good without an outcome? so there's more, but then there's also like what what has to happen in order for us to call it good. And I think the broader that definition is, the better. And you know, I keep name dropping, but I don't know if you know Tina Schermer Sellers. Do you know Tina Shermer Sellers? She's

No, I don't think so.

Yeah, she's kind of in the more kind of on the sort of recovering sexuality from evangelical purity culture kind of side of the equation. But she you know, her argument ultimately is that sex is for pleasure and connection. And when it's and those Those are different kinds of outcomes, right? And so when you when you can shift your mindset into like, nope, it's for pleasure and connection, then again, the world kind of opens up a lot and you don't have to kind of release the pressure off of whatever outcome you've highlighted.

Makes sense. It's like I I think what you're saying is sort of like, what is our north star, you know, when it comes to sex? Like what or how are we aiming ourselves? And yeah, if it's pleasure and connection, then it's like someone might be having and I've had many people tell me this. They're the best sex that they remember is n one where maybe they didn't orgasm.

Mm-hmm.

You know? So it's it's not always about that outcome. It's really about what was unique about it. Did you feel really seen and heard? Did you do something you don't normally get to do? Is the setting really exciting and erotic, you know? Yeah.

And I think if I had one other maybe one other thing and it's back to this idea of play date, it's this idea that I don't think I don't know anybody who loves to work. Like and I don't I mean I mean that's the I mean I I'm trying to set up the the idea that work who wants to work? Like play. Right. Let's not work harder. Let's play. Yeah. And even work, you know, when it's edifying, there's a there's a result that you can see or a like a I I think about working out at the gym and there's a like a pain that you feel. But I you know, when people come in here and they wanna work on their sex life, I'm like, How about we just play instead? Like why don't we why don't we shift that shift the verb? Yeah.

think that's hard for women especially I've seen to kinda get out of this idea that, you know, this is really important to my husband or whatever, you know, and I need to you know, I know that he's just more energized when he has sex and like I know it's really he feels rejected and hurt and pouty and whatever if he doesn't and then even if he's like, I know I need to manage my own feelings, so I don't want you to feel like that sometimes she'll still feel like

Yeah.

you know.

Which is why again I think she has to have a real clarity or he and they they need to have clarity about when they don't want sex, what don't they want. And if what they don't want is work or obligation, then you need to negotiate that this is actually play and an opportunity. and then maybe the dynamic shifts a little bit.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah. I love that. so tell us a little bit more about, you know, your work and who you work with and and how people can connect with you.

Yeah. well, I'm in I'm in Seattle. Most of my private practice is in person, so I see a lot of clients here. But I do I do have a my own show. It's called Marriage Therapy Radio. The format of that show is I interview couples. So when Susan came on and Emily, actually they both came on with their partners and we had a whole conversation about like kind of how they do it. how they make their relationship work behind the scenes a little bit. So that was cool. and, you know, but I like I like the format of that show in part because, you know, in my private practice and in my life, I get I get to talk to a lot of couples about how they make it work. I mean I've talked to thousands, you know. And that's so cool. Most people don't do that. Most people talk to their parents, their maybe their in laws, maybe their friends, somebody they saw on TV. That's their whole context for what makes a relationship work. And so I'm just trying to provide more context and have like different different folks or different experiences kind of so you can go, that's a

So what have you learned that you've applied to your marriage from interviewing so many couples next week?

I I can't even I can't even begin to roll out. Like I feel so grateful. I'm I I think I'm a guy who would definitely have been divorced a couple of times from Rebecca. if I didn't have my I mean, if I was just clocking in and out like a average Joe in some other job at Microsoft or the bakery or whatever, and I wasn't constantly filtering through skills and context and practice and You know, I I think I would have been in big trouble. I didn't I didn't have enough of them on my own. so you know, I have this amazing benefit of hearing from different people and I just my my panic meter isn't very high. I don't stress out about conflict at my house. Like cool. you know, but I guess if I if there was I guess I maybe I have two little kind of hip pocket things that I tell most people and number one is in my family the thing that sustains us th and I have two daughters and they're both adulting, is that we're really good at repair. Nice. So like, we're all hot heads, we argue quite a bit. We any one of us could tee off at anybody else for any reason. Okay. And so we'd never we'd we'd never tried to s take that away from us. Like we'd like we're we're okay, we're passionate people. Yeah. But we did prioritize repair. So like for me it's like everybody in my family will say that we're really good at repair. That's awesome. You know. but when I'm on an airplane and I've and a and people ask me like like you just did, like what's the main thing? What's what's the secret or what have I learned? functionally functionally a happy marriage for me comes down to two things and really only two things. Number one is you've got to be a grown up. You gotta have two grown ups in the equation. Like you gotta have two functional adults, sober adults, wise adults, whatever you is, who are, you know, taking accountability and being responsible enough to come to the relationship in that skin. Mm-hmm. If you're if your trauma's running the show, if your addiction's running the show, if you're you know, if you're running being run by dopamine or by adrenaline or cortisol, it's just not gonna work. So you gotta do that work. That's number one. And then the second thing is Do more things that your partner likes and fewer things that your partner doesn't like.

It seems so easy when you say it that way.

That's it. That is the whole thing. You know? But adults two adults can negotiate that. Two adults can say, Hey, I don't like that or hey, I do like that. And in fact, it's actually part of the skill of being a good lover. Like being a good lover is when your partner says, Faster, right there. that feels you go faster and you stay right there. Yeah. And

Listening.

when they say ouch, you don't say, Well, I wasn't trying to hurt you or but I wasn't but I didn't mean to and Well, I that always worked that you know, you go, my gosh, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yes. And you stop doing the thing that makes them say ouch. You know. In bed. We that seems intuitive in bed because we don't want to physically like we're we're bought into the idea of pleasure and pain and we want more pleasure and less pain. You know, 'cause your dominatrix accepted perhaps, but like but we don't think about that quite as much on the emotional side. Like where our job is really just emotionally, practically, you know. spiritually, intellectually, do more things that your partner likes and do fewer things that your partner doesn't like. That's a that's being a good lover. Brilliant. Love it.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Zach. This has been a fun convo and a couple of good little nuggets for myself as well. So yeah, everyone listening, thank you for being here. I love that y'all are doing the work on your own relationships. and we will link to Zach's podcast and website if you want to find out more about him in the show notes. So thanks for listening. We'll catch you in a couple weeks in another episode of Sex for Couples. Bye.